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80% lower markings
#1
Say you finish an 80% lower, is it legal to mark it with your name or do you have to be a manufacturer?

I had a customer (I work for a smith on and off when needed) call and say one of his customers got a legal opinion from another shop that I find to be a bunch of asshats, so they shall remain nameless, but what is the opinion here?

Can a guy mark his homemade firearm with his name if he wants?
Some people need to read this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1936976021/ref=...jwbZH1GAZF

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#2
In PA, he can mark it (or not mark it) however he wants if it's for personal use. If he's in another state, or plans to sell it, some marking requirements may apply.
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#3
bac0nfat;26147 Wrote:In PA, he can mark it (or not mark it) however he wants if it's for personal use. If he's in another state, or plans to sell it, some marking requirements may apply.

if he plans on selling it, would he need a manufacturer's licenseof some kind?

i have yet to understand why someone would get an 80% lower. it seems to be way too much work.
cellboothmgr, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Oct 2012.
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#4
cellboothmgr;26152 Wrote:i have yet to understand why someone would get an 80% lower. it seems to be way too much work.

Because it's not considered a firearm. Hence it can be purchased without going through a FFL. A 100% lower IS considered a firearm, and the initial purchase must be done through a FFL.
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#5
ivwarrior;26176 Wrote:
cellboothmgr;26152 Wrote:i have yet to understand why someone would get an 80% lower. it seems to be way too much work.

Because it's not considered a firearm. Hence it can be purchased without going through a FFL. A 100% lower IS considered a firearm, and the initial purchase must be done through a FFL.

Long arms do not need an ffl. As long as it wasn't done as a pistol, there is one concern. You can sell a firearm you produced, but you are not able to produce it with the intent to sell it. This is just my understanding of the laws, IANAL.

So if I finish one, and sell the rifle to my brother down the road, it isn't an issue. However, if I finish one for the purpose of selling it, that is when the manufacture issues arise.
This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. -Ben Franklin
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#6
bac0nfat;26147 Wrote:In PA, he can mark it (or not mark it) however he wants if it's for personal use. If he's in another state, or plans to sell it, some marking requirements may apply.

Thanks for the second opinion.

This is what I told the dealer when he called. The ATF has a FAQ section and that's how I read it there and how I've always understood it.

Seems this other shop is still out there handing out incorrect legal advice, probably in an attempt to increase their bottom line by suggesting the original customer buy a complete lower from them.
Some people need to read this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1936976021/ref=...jwbZH1GAZF

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#7
cellboothmgr;26152 Wrote:
bac0nfat;26147 Wrote:In PA, he can mark it (or not mark it) however he wants if it's for personal use. If he's in another state, or plans to sell it, some marking requirements may apply.

if he plans on selling it, would he need a manufacturer's licenseof some kind?

i have yet to understand why someone would get an 80% lower. it seems to be way too much work.

I've never understood them either, except for maybe it gives the guy the satisfaction of completing the job himself and that he can put whatever kind of markings on it he wishes.

The guy that finished the one I originally asked about did it for that reason, he wanted a clean slate to put his own stuff on.
The shop he took it to has gunsmith services and after having his lower for 6 weeks, they called him and said their smith said it was illegal for him to build an AR lower and to mark it with his own information since he in not a manufacturer and to come and get it out of their shop. They claimed they called the ATF and the ATF confirmed that you cannot legally put any information on a firearm, only the manufacturer can.Rolleyes
Some people need to read this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1936976021/ref=...jwbZH1GAZF

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#8
39Flathead;26211 Wrote:
cellboothmgr;26152 Wrote:if he plans on selling it, would he need a manufacturer's licenseof some kind?

i have yet to understand why someone would get an 80% lower. it seems to be way too much work.

I've never understood them either, except for maybe it gives the guy the satisfaction of completing the job himself and that he can put whatever kind of markings on it he wishes.

The guy that finished the one I originally asked about did it for that reason, he wanted a clean slate to put his own stuff on.
The shop he took it to has gunsmith services and after having his lower for 6 weeks, they called him and said their smith said it was illegal for him to build an AR lower and to mark it with his own information since he in not a manufacturer and to come and get it out of their shop. They claimed they called the ATF and the ATF confirmed that you cannot legally put any information on a firearm, only the manufacturer can.Rolleyes

This gun smith's info is false. You can mark an 80% lower with whatever you choose. In fact, most manufacturers that sell them say that you should put some sort of identifying marks on it, to guard yourself against theft or loss.

Quote:Do I need an FFL to make a firearm?
In a short answer, no. As long as you can legally own the firearm in the state, county and city you reside in you are allowed to manufacture a firearm for your own personal use. No serial number is required however it is suggested to engrave a serial number, model and manufacturer on your receiver in case it is lost or stolen.

-http://www.tacticalmachining.com/80-lower-receiver.html

Quote:2.1 What are the legal ramifications? Do I need an FFL to get one?

{snip}After completing it, you should put a serial number and your name, or some name on it so as to make it identifiable should the need ever arise. However, see the ATF letter above for specific information.

-http://www.acmearms.com/80percentfaq.php

So, I am not a lawyer, but it seems that you can mark it anyway you want, and should do just that.
~All Knowledge is Worth Having~
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#9
Connal;26179 Wrote:
ivwarrior;26176 Wrote:Because it's not considered a firearm. Hence it can be purchased without going through a FFL. A 100% lower IS considered a firearm, and the initial purchase must be done through a FFL.

Long arms do not need an ffl. As long as it wasn't done as a pistol, there is one concern. You can sell a firearm you produced, but you are not able to produce it with the intent to sell it. This is just my understanding of the laws, IANAL.

So if I finish one, and sell the rifle to my brother down the road, it isn't an issue. However, if I finish one for the purpose of selling it, that is when the manufacture issues arise.

Long arms DO require an FFL for the initial purchase mentioned in the post you quoted. Lowers are not considered rifles until a buttstock has been attached. Until that point, it's considered a firearm and not a rifle.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
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