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Aurora: Tactical Vest = "Heavy Body Armor"
#1
I stumbled across this interesting article about how the Aurora shooter wasn't actually wearing armor beyond possibly a ballistic helmet.

http://minx.cc/?post=331266

How much you want to bet the MSM just made this shit up to preemptively shutdown the carry argument? I wonder what the media would say if he happened to be wearing a plate carrier without the plates? He would be an unstoppable killing machine then for sure! Reminds me of how in a "journalist's" eyes every gun is either a glock or an AK-47 "machine gun" with "assault clips".
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#2
Whether he was wearing it or not, you can go on ebay right now and get a top end police trade in level II Safariland Zero G for under $100.

So to me, the threat of facing an armored criminal or mass shooter is real.
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#3
Valorius;31101 Wrote:Whether he was wearing it or not, you can go on ebay right now and get a top end police trade in level II Safariland Zero G for under $100.

So to me, the threat of facing an armored criminal or mass shooter is real.
I think people overestimate the effect of wearing body armor on combat. I've never been shot at, but from what I've heard from those who have been shot with soft body armor seem to describe it as being like getting whacked in the stomach with a sledgehammer and sometimes can break ribs. I think most people think of someone with heavy body armor they think of someone walking through a hail of gunfire with shots being deflected like superman. Sure adrenaline is going to play a part, but I would think a couple of body shots is definitely going to slow down a mere mortal even with armor unless they are high on PCP or something. I'd be much more concerned with someone wearing plates that disperse the energy over a much wider area, but I don't see most psychopath active shooters bothering to track down some class IV ballistic plates.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#4
Emoticon;31300 Wrote:I think people overestimate the effect of wearing body armor on combat. I've never been shot at, but from what I've heard from those who have been shot with soft body armor seem to describe it as being like getting whacked in the stomach with a sledgehammer and sometimes can break ribs.
No.

Quote:I think most people think of someone with heavy body armor they think of someone walking through a hail of gunfire with shots being deflected like superman.

Yes.

Want an example? LA bank robbers.

Quote:Sure adrenaline is going to play a part, but I would think a couple of body shots is definitely going to slow down a mere mortal even with armor unless they are high on PCP or something

No.

Have you seen any of the armor test videos i took? .The impact force is minimal with pistol bullets. They barely even move a free swinging vest.

US military studies show that for significant blunt force trauma to occur, the impact energy needs to generally be at or above about 2200-2500fps energy.

No pistol bullet in common defensive use produces even 1/3 that amount. Even the hottest 5.56mm produces just 1400fpe at the muzzle from a 20" barrel.

Based on my research and actual testing, I recommend you look into this subject more. Everything you're stating in those quotes is factually incorrect.

There are tons and tons and tons of people shooting themselves or someone else while wearing body armor on video. Pistol bullets have virtually NO effect when it comes to blunt force injury.
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#5
Emoticon;31300 Wrote:
Valorius;31101 Wrote:Whether he was wearing it or not, you can go on ebay right now and get a top end police trade in level II Safariland Zero G for under $100.

So to me, the threat of facing an armored criminal or mass shooter is real.
I think people overestimate the effect of wearing body armor on combat. I've never been shot at, but from what I've heard from those who have been shot with soft body armor seem to describe it as being like getting whacked in the stomach with a sledgehammer and sometimes can break ribs. I think most people think of someone with heavy body armor they think of someone walking through a hail of gunfire with shots being deflected like superman. Sure adrenaline is going to play a part, but I would think a couple of body shots is definitely going to slow down a mere mortal even with armor unless they are high on PCP or something. I'd be much more concerned with someone wearing plates that disperse the energy over a much wider area, but I don't see most psychopath active shooters bothering to track down some class IV ballistic plates.
Physics disagrees. Simply speaking, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Unless the firearm's recoil is roughly equivalent to being whacked in the hand with a sledgehammer there is no physical way the projectile could exert that much force upon impact with a target. Even at point-blank range. In-fact, the force applied to the target is always lesser due to energy lost during travel.
"As I lay rubber down the street I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin and begin to slide, please dear God, protect my sweet ride."
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#6
This guy with a ballistic plate doesn't seem to agree with you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6xtd_6XUGQ

Given, the dude is a dumbass, but even with his 6" of fat from the look on his face... he still doesn't seem to think that what he just did was that great of an idea...
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#7
Does that look like he took any kind of a hit that would STOP him in a fight?

I think you are interpreting that video 100% completely wrong. That video is proof that a 10mm is completely ineffective at delivering significant blunt force injury through armor.

It didn't even stagger him, at point blank range. With adrenaline flowing, he wouldn't have felt anything whatsoever. It would have had literally zero effect.

The LA bank robbers are living proof that men in body armor can take -dozens- of hits and shrug it off.
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#8
Emoticon;31325 Wrote:This guy with a ballistic plate doesn't seem to agree with you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6xtd_6XUGQ

Given, the dude is a dumbass, but even with his 6" of fat from the look on his face... he still doesn't seem to think that what he just did was that great of an idea...

Smaller point of impact increases physical trauma and pain, like a lance, but doesn't increase force applied to mimic being hit with a sledgehammer. Watch the video and then decide if him being shot at point blank range would have stopped him from killing you. here's a hint; it wouldn't. Hitting him dead-center with a sledgehammer however, would.
"As I lay rubber down the street I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin and begin to slide, please dear God, protect my sweet ride."
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#9
I'm not saying you'd die from getting shot a couple times while wearing a soft vest, but I do think it's definitely going to take you out of the fight for a couple seconds. Nobody really knows what getting hit by a sledgehammer feels like that hasn't been hit by one so it's not really an apples to apples comparison, but the idea is that you're probably not going to want to do much beyond clutch your chest for a second and recover.

That guy in the video is wearing a minimum 5"x8" ballistic plate in that vest which means the energy of the bullet is being exerted over a 40 square inch area. Without a plate that energy is being exerted over what maybe a 1 square inch area? So the impact force that made this big fat guy wince and step back would be magnified a minimum of say 40 times over the plate... I don't buy it that a person would be unaffected by an impact like that while wearing soft body armor. You don't have to hit someone all that hard to knock the wind out of them, a punch depending on the person has a median impact energy of say ~300J over a surface area of say 8 square inches. A 9mm bullet will impart an impact energy of upwards of 500J over an area of .1 square inches... It's going to put a hurt on you no matter how you cut it without a plate.

At the very minimum the force imparted to your body is probably going to be at least if not more than a pro-boxer giving you a shot in the chest. I don't know about you, but if Mike Tyson got a good solid body shot on me...I'm probably going to need a couple seconds to recover from it. 3 body shots say in quick succession under 2 seconds and I'm probably going to be doubled over for long enough for someone else with a gun to get the advantage on me if I'm not behind cover, even if I didn't get the wind knocked out of me.

The North Hollywood guys were wearing plates and were high on phenobarbital and possibly vodka.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#10
There is too much video and real world evidence that clearly shows handgun bullets do not deliver any appreciable blunt force wounding trauma to ignore.

Like i said, the US Military study that TGS posted on the other forum shows that significant blunt force trauma injury starts in the 2200-2500fpe of energy range. A hot .45acp/9mm/.45/ or mid loaded .357 sig/magnum only hits about 500-550fpe. Barely more than 1/4 the lower end of the energy levels require to cause consistent serious injury through body armor.

Hell, handguns are iffy stoppers even IF the target doesn't have armor on.

The LA bank robbers took dozens of hits each, up to including 12ga 00 buck, and including several hits where significant fragments did penetrate their armor and body, and they were not stopped.

Blunt force trauma through body armor is just not a reliable or appreciable wounding mechanism of handgun bullets. They simply lack the energy.
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