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Being asked to leave....
#21
mikeb0;19184 Wrote:
headcase;19179 Wrote:If you stay after the cart boy tells you, you have committed a summary offense.

Can you cite this specific part of the law? I read your previous post in this thread that quoted trespassing law, I saw nothing that looks like it would support the statement you make in the quote.

I don't see any legal reason I can't ask the "cart boy" - your term; if the request complies with his companies policies and if there is a manager available. Doesn't mean I'm staying, but assuming the "cart boy" has the authority to speak for a business(let's say grocery store) is somewhat ridiculous.

I don't think the law says what you think it says. I of course very well could be wrong.

(b) Defiant trespasser.--
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains
in any place as to which notice against trespass is given
by:
(i) actual communication to the actor
;

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law
or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention
at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
authorized person.
An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it
is a summary offense.


Red says you are committing a crime if you are told to leave, since yellow makes the penalty stronger if you defy the owner or his authorized agent, his unauthorized agents have the power to communicate it to you as well, but the penalty for defying them is only a summary offense in blue.
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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#22
headcase;19249 Wrote:
mikeb0;19184 Wrote:Can you cite this specific part of the law? I read your previous post in this thread that quoted trespassing law, I saw nothing that looks like it would support the statement you make in the quote.

I don't see any legal reason I can't ask the "cart boy" - your term; if the request complies with his companies policies and if there is a manager available. Doesn't mean I'm staying, but assuming the "cart boy" has the authority to speak for a business(let's say grocery store) is somewhat ridiculous.

I don't think the law says what you think it says. I of course very well could be wrong.

(b) Defiant trespasser.--
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains
in any place as to which notice against trespass is given
by:
(i) actual communication to the actor
;

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law
or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention
at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
authorized person.
An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it
is a summary offense.


Red says you are committing a crime if you are told to leave, since yellow makes the penalty stronger if you defy the owner or his authorized agent, his unauthorized agents have the power to communicate it to you as well, but the penalty for defying them is only a summary offense in blue.

Again it doesn't say what you think it says. Actual communication doesn't necessarily mean the "cart boy" as used in this thread has the authority to give you this communication. I suppose it's possible, but extremely unlikely they would have this authority delegated to them by the owner/s or corporate management of the business.

Also once again, I've never once said someone should stay after being asked to leave. I've only pointed out that not all employees have the authority to press trespassing charges against someone which is true whether you choose to believe it or not.
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#23
mikeb0;19293 Wrote:
headcase;19249 Wrote:(b) Defiant trespasser.--
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains
in any place as to which notice against trespass is given
by:
(i) actual communication to the actor
;

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law
or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention
at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
authorized person.
An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it
is a summary offense.


Red says you are committing a crime if you are told to leave, since yellow makes the penalty stronger if you defy the owner or his authorized agent, his unauthorized agents have the power to communicate it to you as well, but the penalty for defying them is only a summary offense in blue.

Again it doesn't say what you think it says. Actual communication doesn't necessarily mean the "cart boy" as used in this thread has the authority to give you this communication. I suppose it's possible, but extremely unlikely they would have this authority delegated to them by the owner/s or corporate management of the business.

Also once again, I've never once said someone should stay after being asked to leave. I've only pointed out that not all employees have the authority to press trespassing charges against someone which is true whether you choose to believe it or not.

Until someone above their pay grade specifically says they don't, then yeah, they do.
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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#24
headcase;19306 Wrote:
mikeb0;19293 Wrote:Again it doesn't say what you think it says. Actual communication doesn't necessarily mean the "cart boy" as used in this thread has the authority to give you this communication. I suppose it's possible, but extremely unlikely they would have this authority delegated to them by the owner/s or corporate management of the business.

Also once again, I've never once said someone should stay after being asked to leave. I've only pointed out that not all employees have the authority to press trespassing charges against someone which is true whether you choose to believe it or not.

Until someone above their pay grade specifically says they don't, then yeah, they do.

So you are admitting that:

a. My previous statement quoted below is accurate.
b. You are have been perpetrating a strawman argument.

Quote:Now that said you don't necessarily have any way of knowing this at the point of confrontation. In a gas station, only employee there I'd probably comply or better yet leave. A larger store that I would have an expectation of a Manager on site. I don't think asking for a Manager is inappropriate.
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#25
Shadowline;19215 Wrote:
bluedog46;19206 Wrote:I am not 100% sure, but in Delaware I think there is something to the effect that the person has to be in a postion of authority like a manager. I would probably just go outside conceal and go back in personally.

Not to offend as some other boards cant handle the truth, but I could be uncomfortable seeing to guys kiss or some woman wearing a face mask. Does that mean they have to leave because I am uncomfortable? NO? I dont think our second amendment rights should be subject to the whim of the sheeple.

So your rights are more important than the property owner's rights? Rights are not "whims".

but its the principle. A small bar is one thing if they dont want a gun in there. Walmart is another to talk about a property owner as someone might own stock in the company. I support the right of property owners, but can I say as a property owner I wont serve people who wear rags on their heads?
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#26
Look all i am saying is anyone that makes an assumption about an employee's level of authority is relying on luck. To me its a bad bet when facing a possible criminal charge. Principles have little to do with it.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
Shadowline, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#27
i don't know why being asked to leave is such a deal. in my younger days i was asked to leave alot of places. not once for carring a gun. a few had to do with riding a harley through the bar.
bob308, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#28
bluedog46;19371 Wrote:
Shadowline;19215 Wrote:So your rights are more important than the property owner's rights? Rights are not "whims".
. I support the right of property owners, but can I say as a property owner I wont serve people who wear rags on their heads?

AFAIK-You don't have to serve anyone you don't want to unless you are basing your denial of service on a federally protected class.
donotknowme, member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
I am a unique & individual snowflake just like everyone else.
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#29
mikeb0;19313 Wrote:
headcase;19306 Wrote:Until someone above their pay grade specifically says they don't, then yeah, they do.

So you are admitting that:

a. My previous statement quoted below is accurate.
b. You are have been perpetrating a strawman argument.

Quote:Now that said you don't necessarily have any way of knowing this at the point of confrontation. In a gas station, only employee there I'd probably comply or better yet leave. A larger store that I would have an expectation of a Manager on site. I don't think asking for a Manager is inappropriate.

Maybe I am not being clear. The statute says what it says, and I personally don't see a problem with asking for a higher up when you have been told to leave by someone way down the food chain. Having said that, the argument being made is that "cart boy" doesn't have the authority to tell you to leave. The statute says he does. It also says that that the owner or his authorized agent has much more force behind their communication. An employee is an agent of the employer. That doesn't mean the owner will back up his actions and may certainly reverse them, but he is still responsible for them while the employee is on the clock. An authorized agent has the specific power to make decisions as if he were the owner, unless the owner specifically overrides him. As I said, the correct course of action would be to leave and take it up with the owner, or reasonable facsimile, after you have left.
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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#30
headcase;19798 Wrote:
mikeb0;19313 Wrote:So you are admitting that:

a. My previous statement quoted below is accurate.
b. You are have been perpetrating a strawman argument.

Maybe I am not being clear. The statute says what it says, and I personally don't see a problem with asking for a higher up when you have been told to leave by someone way down the food chain. Having said that, the argument being made is that "cart boy" doesn't have the authority to tell you to leave. The statute says he does. It also says that that the owner or his authorized agent has much more force behind their communication. An employee is an agent of the employer. That doesn't mean the owner will back up his actions and may certainly reverse them, but he is still responsible for them while the employee is on the clock. An authorized agent has the specific power to make decisions as if he were the owner, unless the owner specifically overrides him. As I said, the correct course of action would be to leave and take it up with the owner, or reasonable facsimile, after you have left.

This statement is absolutely 100% incorrect.

"An employee is an agent of the employer."

The law you quote doesn't change that. Not all employees at all business are in fact authorized to act as an agent of the owner, or their employer. There are no two ways about this, it just isn't true that all employees have the legal authority to "trespass" someone, or make other legal decisions for that matter. The "cart boy" as discussed in this thread is extremely unlikely to have this authority.

I never once said either that you should ignore any employees direction, but I can't see what LEO would arrest you for trespass for asking for a manager, because the "cart boy" told you you were trespassing.

This has even been shown to be true time and again in various posts about OC encounters. How many have gone from an employee to a LEO to a manager and I have yet to read of one here where the carrier was given a summons or arrested for trespass. Many of the common ones actually involve the employee or even manager being told they are wrong by corporate i.e. Walmart encounters.
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