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CIA report.
#1
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/...r-attacks/

Quote:U.S. diplomatic and military posts overseas are being put on alert over the potential backlash from a looming Senate report examining the alleged use of torture by the CIA, with one top lawmaker warning its release could cause "violence and deaths."

An official from the State Department and another from the intelligence community confirmed to Fox News early Monday that an advisory has been sent urging U.S. personnel overseas to reassess security measures.


Wait. So...let me get this straight. Extremists can behead Americans....but Americans can't torture terrorists to get intelligence information without being threatened that more Americans will be killed.

Huh?

Why do we have to release this anyway? I kind of thought torturing terrorists for information about future attacks was normal national security, but what do I know.... I mean......ideally, we wouldn't have to do that, but ideally, terrorists would stay over in their own countries.
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#2
I disagree with most of the conservative talking heads on this one. Waterboarding is torture ask Americans who have experienced it. The talking heads also say that the use of stress positions are no big deal. Does having to sit in this position for hours look like something you would be willing to experience? Is this something your want your country doing to people?

[Image: 2602174A542E686C199E92]

Just try to sit in that position without being tied up or having your arms taut like they would be in that photo and then slide a broomstick behind your shoulders, hold your hands together, heels always touching the ground (or you get smacked on the head, maybe with the butt of a gun) for 10 minutes if you want to see a tiny bit of what a "stress position" really is. Now imagine doing it for a full day maybe in the sun on a really hot day with the sweat dripping in your face burning your eyes that you can't sweep away on top of the burning muscles and exhaustion.

It's no different than a pimp beating a prostitute in such a way as to not leave marks. Is that behavior more ethical than taking a red hot poker to the prostitutes' face producing pain? I don't think so. The physical and psychological experience is the same. Granted we didn't pull fingernails out, but that doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. Even a stopped clock can be right occasionally. The United States should not be torturing people. I promise if you can make it 10 minutes in that position you'll likely collapse into a heap at the end of it.

If the government thought it was an ethical way to behave why did we ship the terror suspects to other countries so they could do the torturing for us? Why hide it if it's such a great way of getting information without physically damaging people. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the timing and I think the motives behind this report release were disgusting and entirely political which I don't agree with. Even though the Dems are using this to score points against Bush's regime, this never would have been an issue if we hadn't acted unethically and underhanded while compromising our principals and ideals in doing this in the first place there would be no black eyes to be had on our side. All this will result in at the end of the day will be motivation for a new crop of terrorists to kill Americans. If the roles were reversed we would be hearing the exact opposite opinions from the conservative talking heads. They are trying to justify an obvious wrong after the fact for equally politically motivated and disgusting reasons.

America does not torture should be our only policy imo. Why would you want to degrade America by stooping to their level and tactics? Why do you wish to measure yourself by how terrorist mass murders behave?
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#3
RugerGirl;158074 Wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/...r-attacks/

Quote:U.S. diplomatic and military posts overseas are being put on alert over the potential backlash from a looming Senate report examining the alleged use of torture by the CIA, with one top lawmaker warning its release could cause "violence and deaths."

An official from the State Department and another from the intelligence community confirmed to Fox News early Monday that an advisory has been sent urging U.S. personnel overseas to reassess security measures.


Wait. So...let me get this straight. Extremists can behead Americans....but Americans can't torture terrorists to get intelligence information without being threatened that more Americans will be killed.

Correct. We're not barbarians and the Constitution doesn't authorize it.

We're supposed to be better than them.

Besides, torture doesn't work.

Justni
[Image: pafoasig.png]
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#4
I'm in the "don't start none, won't be none" camp.

And I like my clandestine stuff to stay clandestine. However, some stuff in there can be legit... Others not so much. Untrained operatives should not ever be put in situations where there is an intelligence potential. Enemy combatants with no legitimate intelligence value should be liquidated.
tolerance for failure meter... LOW
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#5
Ten*K;158247 Wrote:I'm in the "don't start none, won't be none" camp.

And I like my clandestine stuff to stay clandestine. However, some stuff in there can be legit... Others not so much. Untrained operatives should not ever be put in situations where there is an intelligence potential. Enemy combatants with no legitimate intelligence value should be liquidated.

Here's the other problem. What exactly constitutes an "enemy combatant"? According to the government an enemy combatant is:

Quote:"an individual who was part of or supporting the Taliban or al Qaida forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who committed a belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy armed forces."

Now we know that there have been ISIS flags spotted in among the Ferguson rioters. Perhaps unknowingly handing an ISIS sympathizer a gas mask, or helping someone up from the ground during a riot could be construed as supporting an "associated force" of the Taliban\ Al Qaeda? While the Ferguson rioters are repugnant and the government is not torturing our own people yet and that it would be unlikely that they would anytime soon. However, this just outlines the theoretical possibilities that could exist in the future if the government deems it necessary to the interests of national security. Perhaps in a future period of unrest these techniques might be employed against you to say find out who the people orchestrating a demonstration might be. It's a long shot, but they left their definition intentionally vague so they could justify all kinds of things in the name of stopping terrorism. Look at all the shit the patriot act has been used for that was not intended to be allowable by the authors of the act. Then again the government has MADE THE INTERPRETATION OF PARTS OF THE PATRIOT ACT FUCKING CLASSIFIED!!!!! What the hell is that?! How scary is that?! What prevents them from expanding the defined forces beyond the Taliban to include "right wing domestic terrorists and sympathizers" a-la Timothy McVeigh? Do you really want the government to have that kind of power? They already have the NDAA in their back pocket to rip you off the street for no reason if they so choose! This torture business is a huge Pandora's box.

I don't think the government is going to torture people anytime soon, but I'm not into giving them any ideas about new things they can use against American citizens. The conservative talking heads are digging their own graves on this one in my opinion.
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#6
[Image: 911jumper_pic.jpeg]

On this day I supported nuking the entire Middle East. If some scumbag got water up his nose for not cooperating with finding those responsible I count him lucky that he was not skinned alive and thrown in a pit of fire ants and then water boarded. And when they were done with him they should have shot him in the head instead of sending him to Gitmo.

"Enhanced interrogation" is too good for these assholes. Just skip right to real torture. If they want to be martyrs, then make them earn it.

And finally, Keep it secret. I don't want to hear about it and I don't want our president apologizing to terrorists and throwing the CIA and military under the bus when they are all that has kept us safe for the last 13 years.
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#7
Sorry....I kinda gotta side with Coops on this one.

I see what direction your fears lie, Emoticon, and I think it's valid.....but I also think the whole 9/11 and Gitmo thing was valid and necessary and that it's nothing but dirty revenge for the recent election for these things to be released....and American blood will be on .gov's hands when the Middle East retaliates.
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#8
It should be illegal for the government to have clandestine operating.

Justin
[Image: pafoasig.png]
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#9
Coops;158252 Wrote:On this day I supported nuking the entire Middle East. If some scumbag got water up his nose for not cooperating with finding those responsible I count him lucky that he was not skinned alive and thrown in a pit of fire ants and then water boarded. And when they were done with him they should have shot him in the head instead of sending him to Gitmo.

"Enhanced interrogation" is too good for these assholes. Just skip right to real torture. If they want to be martyrs, then make them earn it.

And finally, Keep it secret. I don't want to hear about it and I don't want our president apologizing to terrorists and throwing the CIA and military under the bus when they are all that has kept us safe for the last 13 years.

Call it tin-foil hat, but I personally do not believe Obama was responsible for sending the team and getting Osama. I think he was long dead as many foreign intelligence agencies previously suspected due to his documented health problems. They say the photos were too graphic to post, but they damn sure didn't have problems posting pictures up of Uday and Qsay Hussein after they got their compound caved in on their heads by a cruise missile. All of the events surrounding it were so questionable and done in a manner we have not done before or since (the whole "islamic" burial at sea deal?). On top of that there was the Chinook crash that took out like 15 Seal Team Six members right after the operation that that there still is a laundry list of questions about. The former team members even dispute who took the kill shot. I think the whole zero-dark-thirty stuff was simply propaganda to help solidify a second term in office as well as make it seem like "Extraordinary Rendition" \ torture fiasco wasn't as fucked up as it really was. They may have just killed some random high level Al Qaeda operative who looked similar at that compound and just claimed it was him as justification for a SF team's incursion into Pakistan which would have been unacceptable to the international community under any other circumstance. Just my theory.

If you're willing to support pulling out someone's fingernails who just got a dime dropped on them by maybe a competing business person in a village somewhere in bumfuck Afghanistan for intel they probably never had, then you are pretty close to stooping to their level. Part of the problem with shutting down Gitmo is that there were quite a few people documented who were innocent that we were willing to yank off the street simply because someone else who maybe didn't like them said they were a terrorist sympathizer and we acted with little or no evidence of actual guilt. If they weren't terrorists back then they damn sure are now after being tortured over nothing.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#10
RugerGirl;158257 Wrote:Sorry....I kinda gotta side with Coops on this one.

I see what direction your fears lie, Emoticon, and I think it's valid.....but I also think the whole 9/11 and Gitmo thing was valid and necessary and that it's nothing but dirty revenge for the recent election for these things to be released....and American blood will be on .gov's hands when the Middle East retaliates.

There is another way to look at this;

Is it okay for a police officer to break a law himself in order to bust someone he "knows" is guilty? That is the sort of behavior you are supporting if you are willing to torture people for information like this. The government has shown time and time again that it has no concept of, "Oh but this is a special circumstance where we can bend the rules a little this time because the crime was so horrendous". Once the government knows it has a power like that it will widen that hole in the law and exploit it every possible way the lawyers can figure out to do so. What is the point of having principals at all if you're willing to compromise them? You can be certain that the NSA and similar agencies have their grubby little fingers in every communication network in the middle east to gain all the intel they need without having to torture anyone.
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