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CIA report.
#11
Emoticon;158260 Wrote:
RugerGirl;158257 Wrote:Sorry....I kinda gotta side with Coops on this one.

I see what direction your fears lie, Emoticon, and I think it's valid.....but I also think the whole 9/11 and Gitmo thing was valid and necessary and that it's nothing but dirty revenge for the recent election for these things to be released....and American blood will be on .gov's hands when the Middle East retaliates.

There is another way to look at this;

Is it okay for a police officer to break a law himself in order to bust someone he "knows" is guilty? That is the sort of behavior you are supporting if you are willing to torture people for information like this. The government has shown time and time again that it has no concept of, "Oh but this is a special circumstance where we can bend the rules a little because the crime was so horrendous". Once the government knows it has a power like that it will widen that hole in the law and exploit it every possible way the lawyers can figure out to do so. What is the point of having principals at all if you're willing to compromise them? You can be certain that the NSA and similar agencies have their grubby little fingers in every communication network in the middle east to gain all the intel they need without having to torture anyone.

I feel like there is a difference between torturing terrorists and a police officer breaking the law to bust a US citizen. When it comes to US citizens, their constitutional rights should be fully protected. When it comes to a formal enemy army (an army of a nation), the Geneva Convention rules should be abide by. As for terrorists, fuck them. My opinion may not be morally correct, and I know it is illegal, but I have no sympathy for those bastards. Fighting an organized, conventional army is like a boxing match. Fighting terrorism is like a street fight; gloves off, anything goes.
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#12
Philadelphia Patriot;158263 Wrote:
Emoticon;158260 Wrote:There is another way to look at this;

Is it okay for a police officer to break a law himself in order to bust someone he "knows" is guilty? That is the sort of behavior you are supporting if you are willing to torture people for information like this. The government has shown time and time again that it has no concept of, "Oh but this is a special circumstance where we can bend the rules a little because the crime was so horrendous". Once the government knows it has a power like that it will widen that hole in the law and exploit it every possible way the lawyers can figure out to do so. What is the point of having principals at all if you're willing to compromise them? You can be certain that the NSA and similar agencies have their grubby little fingers in every communication network in the middle east to gain all the intel they need without having to torture anyone.

I feel like there is a difference between torturing terrorists and a police officer breaking the law to bust a US citizen. When it comes to US citizens, their constitutional rights should be fully protected. When it comes to a formal enemy army (an army of a nation), the Geneva Convention rules should be abide by. As for terrorists, fuck them. My opinion may not be morally correct, and I know it is illegal, but I have no sympathy for those bastards. Fighting an organized, conventional army is like a boxing match. Fighting terrorism is like a street fight; gloves off, anything goes.

What if it is a serial killer the cop is 99.5% certain has killed and tortured countless people? If you do the research, you can see government does not make a distinction in its legal definition of combatants between you, a US citizen, and a foreign terrorist. In the eyes of the gov't anything done to them can at least in theory be done to you with this regime that has zero regard for the constitution. At the very least it makes using things like torture feel more acceptable if they were to be used in an extreme domestic case if you're willing to do it at all even internationally. Having principals and sticking with them is not easy for good reason. It means you don't fall into temptation and break the rules "just this once".
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#13
If I can save innocent lives by getting information out of a terrorist by questionable methods, so be it.

All governments do this, guys. Obama is just the idiot that wants to be so transparent he tattle tales on everyone else but himself. Torturing for information has spanned many governments and centuries, as have clandestine operations. We just don't usually find out about it. But finding out about it makes it no better and no worse.
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#14
Someone in the asylum gets it.

John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech. Tor…: http://youtu.be/wR7qsQDWVPU
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#15
RugerGirl;158267 Wrote:If I can save innocent lives by getting information out of a terrorist by questionable methods, so be it.

All governments do this, guys. Obama is just the idiot that wants to be so transparent he tattle tales on everyone else but himself. Torturing for information has spanned many governments and centuries, as have clandestine operations. We just don't usually find out about it. But finding out about it makes it no better and no worse.

Everyone does it? If everyone jumped off a bridge would you jump too lol? Big Grin I don't think the nameless stars on the wall at CIA HQ got there from people who died while torturing others. Like I said I don't agree with the motives behind releasing this report, but I do think if we never did this in the first place we would not have had this issue. I've yet to see any direct evidence where torturing people resulted in averted terrorist attacks. I would think that if they did have any evidence of this they'd be holding it up for all to see to justify their actions.

I wouldn't hold up McCain as an example though personally lol, hes about a reliable as a coin flip when it comes to policy in general.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#16
JustinHEMI;158237 Wrote:Correct. We're not barbarians and the Constitution doesn't authorize it.

We're supposed to be better than them.

Besides, torture doesn't work.

Wrong. Torture does work. That is why it has been used as a tactic to obtain information or coerce behavior for thousands of years. Is there false information given? Of course, but when someone is being tortured for the code to the lock-box and ends up giving a false code to stop the pain, the rest of the information about the lock-box and the area it is in is generally what the extractors were looking for in the first place.

But, you are right on the other points. We are not barbarians, and we should not act like them. While that could potentially be our undoing, right is right and we should always strive to do the right thing even if it could mean our undoing. Besides, being barbarians will be our undoing as well, we may as well go down with honor.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#17
Then terrorists should be executed if no information can be gotten from them ethically.....but we know that won't be done, either.
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#18
RugerGirl;158280 Wrote:Then terrorists should be executed if no information can be gotten from them ethically.....but we know that won't be done, either.

Perhaps they simply shouldn't be captured alive at all?
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#19
Camper;158279 Wrote:
JustinHEMI;158237 Wrote:Correct. We're not barbarians and the Constitution doesn't authorize it.

We're supposed to be better than them.

Besides, torture doesn't work.

Wrong. Torture does work. That is why it has been used as a tactic to obtain information or coerce behavior for thousands of years. Is there false information given? Of course, but when someone is being tortured for the code to the lock-box and ends up giving a false code to stop the pain, the rest of the information about the lock-box and the area it is in is generally what the extractors were looking for in the first place.

But, you are right on the other points. We are not barbarians, and we should not act like them. While that could potentially be our undoing, right is right and we should always strive to do the right thing even if it could mean our undoing. Besides, being barbarians will be our undoing as well, we may as well go down with honor.


No, I'm not wrong.

Justin
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#20
On the subject of domestic use of torture on US citizens. No way under any circumstances.

Against foreigners who have announced their evil intentions? The constitution gives them no protection. No safety from searches, no habeus corpus, no right to a speedy jury trial, no right to freedom from cruel or unusual punishments. Poke the big dog and get bit and folks stay away from the big dog. That's the way deterrence works. Use a nuke and people will believe you will use a nuke in the future. Whine and cry and question your leaders and the enemy will laugh and become emboldened.
These Islamists have lived for 1000's of years under Taliban-like rulers who cut their body parts off for smiling crooked. They don't respect us because we are weak plus they hate us with the passion of a million suns. Brutal destruction is all they understand. So brutally destroy them and make it painful, so painful that Allah himself winces. Threaten the mullahs with assassination unless they get the faithful in line and take out a few to make the point. Preach radical Islam and get a drone with your name on it.
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