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Collapsible batons, any change in consensus?
#1
I've been researching the carrying of collapsible batons in both PA and DE. I found a post on the other site which seems to be leaning towards no even though there is no reference to collapsible batons in the offensive weapons statute, but the post was from like 2008. I'm wondering has anyone seen anything where case law has evolved at all with regards to this in PA? I'm also not seeing in Delaware law anywhere in my research where anything specifically references batons either or any language that would lead me to believe they are illegal to possess.

I'm seriously considering picking one up, I'm thinking it might be a nice balance to a full framed weapon on a belt, but as I find myself in both DE an PA quite often the muddiness of PA law is quite concerning. The PA statute cites that the offensive weapons on the list have "no lawful purpose", but I think the commonwealth would prefer a citizen to give a dog with a foul temperament charging at someone at full tilt for example a solid whack from an ASP baton over pulling and discharging a weapon and then having to deal with all the bullshit that goes on with that. I don't see how self defense would not be a "lawful purpose" for such a weapon. What do you guys think? Anyone have any new info on the subject?
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#2
Personally, as a civilian and non-armed security professional, I would not carry one. I think a sidearm/handgun/revolver/pistol/etc., knife, and OC/Mace/Pepper spray would cover all of your needs short of a Red Dawn scenario or zombie apocalypse.
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#3
After seeing the Zimmerman trial and how they are demonizing the fact that he carried two flashlights and a round in the chamber, I'm hesitant to carry much more than a gun. Just imagine what they would say in court if you had a gun, spare mag, back up gun, flashlight, pocket knife, pepper spray, and a collapsible baton. You were obviously "looking for trouble."
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#4
bac0nfat;107905 Wrote:After seeing the Zimmerman trial and how they are demonizing the fact that he carried two flashlights and a round in the chamber, I'm hesitant to carry much more than a gun. Just imagine what they would say in court if you had a gun, spare mag, back up gun, flashlight, pocket knife, pepper spray, and a collapsible baton. You were obviously "looking for trouble."

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that there are a lot of "mall ninjas" out there, but we can't let the Zimmerman case cause us to let our guards down. The Zimmerman case is a little more complex because, depending on what you believe, he initially followed Martin. I would hope most of us here would be more defensive and choose not to follow or chase anyone we consider a threat.

There are countless reasonable arguments for carrying a small flashlight, pocket knife, and +1. The extra mag might need a little more explaining, but I think there are plenty of cases out there (e.g. Philly flash mobs, people high on some type of drug giving them super human strength, etc.) that would justify carrying a spare mag.
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#5
bac0nfat;107905 Wrote:After seeing the Zimmerman trial and how they are demonizing the fact that he carried two flashlights and a round in the chamber, I'm hesitant to carry much more than a gun. Just imagine what they would say in court if you had a gun, spare mag, back up gun, flashlight, pocket knife, pepper spray, and a collapsible baton. You were obviously "looking for trouble."

...Or maybe just an ex-Boy Scout who takes the "Be Prepared" motto seriously, from when kids used to actually do things outside that might result in a scraped knee Big Grin... You can look at the Zimmerman business that way... Not to Monday morning quarterback, but as a hypothetical if Zimmerman had bashed Trayvon with a baton he might be in a lot less hot water legally than having to stand trial for murder as he is now if Zimmerman maybe just busted his arm or knocked him unconscious. I don't believe in warning shots, but I do believe in a firearm as a last resort after other ways to defuse the situation have failed or if there is no alternative.

If I were unarmed as Trayvon was and someone pulled a baton on me I would not want any part of that fight and try to get away unless I was in a strictly defensive situation, since you're pretty much not going to win that one with your bare hands more than likely.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#6
Philadelphia Patriot;107918 Wrote:
bac0nfat;107905 Wrote:After seeing the Zimmerman trial and how they are demonizing the fact that he carried two flashlights and a round in the chamber, I'm hesitant to carry much more than a gun. Just imagine what they would say in court if you had a gun, spare mag, back up gun, flashlight, pocket knife, pepper spray, and a collapsible baton. You were obviously "looking for trouble."

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that there are a lot of "mall ninjas" out there, but we can't let the Zimmerman case cause us to let our guards down. The Zimmerman case is a little more complex because, depending on what you believe, he initially followed Martin. I would hope most of us here would be more defensive and choose not to follow or chase anyone we consider a threat.

There are countless reasonable arguments for carrying a small flashlight, pocket knife, and +1. The extra mag might need a little more explaining, but I think there are plenty of cases out there (e.g. Philly flash mobs, people high on some type of drug giving them super human strength, etc.) that would justify carrying a spare mag.

I can see both sides of the argument, but for me personally, the chances of me ever needing a spare mag and all that other gear are exceptionally low. I carry a gun, a small flashlight, and a leatherman. In the tiny chance that I ever need to defend myself, I think that will most likely be sufficient. Keep in mind, my Glock 19 holds 15 + 1 rounds of 9mm JHP's.

If I ever DO need to defend myself, I'd rather chance it with only 15 rounds, than look like a mall ninja in court.

But that's just my opinion and I think everyone should be free to make their own decision. If I lived in a bad area, my opinion might be different.
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#7
bac0nfat;107922 Wrote:
Philadelphia Patriot;107918 Wrote:I understand what you are saying, and I agree that there are a lot of "mall ninjas" out there, but we can't let the Zimmerman case cause us to let our guards down. The Zimmerman case is a little more complex because, depending on what you believe, he initially followed Martin. I would hope most of us here would be more defensive and choose not to follow or chase anyone we consider a threat.

There are countless reasonable arguments for carrying a small flashlight, pocket knife, and +1. The extra mag might need a little more explaining, but I think there are plenty of cases out there (e.g. Philly flash mobs, people high on some type of drug giving them super human strength, etc.) that would justify carrying a spare mag.

I can see both sides of the argument, but for me personally, the chances of me ever needing a spare mag and all that other gear are exceptionally low. I carry a gun, a small flashlight, and a leatherman. In the tiny chance that I ever need to defend myself, I think that will most likely be sufficient. Keep in mind, my Glock 19 holds 15 + 1 rounds of 9mm JHP's.

If I ever DO need to defend myself, I'd rather chance it with only 15 rounds, than look like a mall ninja in court.

But that's just my opinion and I think everyone should be free to make their own decision. If I lived in a bad area, my opinion might be different.

Yeah, I carry a small folding knife (it only has a 2.5" blade), my sidearm (either a Ruger SR9c w/ 10+1 mag or Ruger LCP), and a flashlight. I'll carry the 17 round mag in a holder if I have to drive through the ghetto (North Philly, West Philly, etc.) or go to center city (flash mob HQ). Where I live now on the border, 10+1 is sufficient.
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#8
I don't know about consensus, but I'm not aware of any changes in the statutes...
Quote:18 Pa.C.S. § 908: Prohibited offensive weapons

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes repairs,
sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive
weapon.

...

"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun,
sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm
specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent
discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger,
knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is
exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring
mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or
other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the
infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common
lawful purpose.

http://www.pa2a.org/wiki.php?wid=14

For me this pretty plainly says "I wouldn't carry that if I were you". Expandable/collapsible batons aren't listed by name but the "or other implement" phrasing seems to cover it. For me anyway.

In addition to my pistol and spare mag, a carry a pocket knife, OC spray, and flashlight. My size may also have worked for me as a deterrent in the past. I don't know, I've never tried to eke out a living sizing up and taking down hapless victims for profit, but it's possible that my 6'3" 300lb frame played a small part. I've often wondered. I've spent a lot of time in Baltimore City in some terrifying neighborhoods, looking like a geek and completely out of place in a jacket and tie, and completely unarmed. I think I'm pretty fortunate to be able to say that in my 56 years I've never been in a situation where I needed a weapon. I've been in those places, but never the situation.

And it's not because of the "I kill and eat babies with my bare hands" tattoo on my forehead either. I think if you're going to carry a baton you should at least understand the risk. OC spray is non-lethal and completely legal. A firearm(s) is lethal and completely legal with appropriate license, and those two pretty much cover the spectrum of effective defenses. Why complicate things?
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#9
Philadelphia Patriot;107918 Wrote:I understand what you are saying, and I agree that there are a lot of "mall ninjas" out there, but we can't let the Zimmerman case cause us to let our guards down. The Zimmerman case is a little more complex because, depending on what you believe, he initially followed Martin. I would hope most of us here would be more defensive and choose not to follow or chase anyone we consider a threat.

The Zimmerman case is not complex at all, it is a matter of race baiting straight from the top - Obama. Two DAs refused to prosecute the case before it was ordered to be prosecuted. How often does that happen?

If that didn't finally happen, Holder would have stuck to his threat to prosecute it federally under civil rights violations and race crimes and all kinds of laws that I don't understand and the federal government has no right to establish.

And, I sure as hell hope you would follow somebody in my neighborhood if you thought they were going to start robbing people. I would do it for you. There is nothing illegal about that, and it's the right thing to do.

I guess that means I don't agree at all.
I produced precise formulations for what you call, "Black Powder," for General Washington. If not for me, you would be speaking the Queen's English today. Say my name, which you cannot find with an internet search, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#10
bac0nfat;107922 Wrote:If I ever DO need to defend myself, I'd rather chance it with only 15 rounds, than look like a mall ninja in court.

IMO, the main reason for carrying an extra mag/mags is in case of malfunction, NOT round count. Additional rounds would be a 'bonus' in the event everything worked properly.
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