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Confusion about PA vehicle carry.
#1
I was reading another carry forum where someone had mentioned that you may carry a firearm in your vehicle in PA if you have a valid carry permit in any state irregardless of reciprocity when the issue of the PA-UT reciprocity agreements had changed came up, you just cannot get out of the vehicle and conceal. I did not thing this was true and I was not aware of this clause previously, so I did a little digging into it and found the following..

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106:

Section B-15 states:

Quote:(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.

Then there is another part where it says:

Quote:18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

^this doesn't seem to specify a license issued by PA.

Does anyone else take this to mean that the people who are effected by the UT change can conceal a firearm in their vehicle and then OC when the reach their destination? Does this have any effect on the "Cities of the first class" clause where a LTCF or valid reciprocity permit is required for Philly? I'm not personally effected by this, but I'm very confused by this exception as to what it really means and was entirely unaware of it until today.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#2
I recall it being a valid permit from your home state (no matter reciprocity) allows you to carry in a vehicle in PA. This recollection is just from reading various threads on the matter on poofa.
The law? The law is a human institution...
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#3
There have been recent changes, changes in reciprocity, and changes in case law.

First, are we talking about PA residents, or residents of other states visiting or driving through PA? The specific scenario matters.

Edit: I'm typing this on my phone, and it sucks, so I'm trying to be brief.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#4
Curmudgeon;147428 Wrote:There have been recent changes, changes in reciprocity, and changes in case law.

First, are we talking about PA residents, or residents of other states visiting or driving through PA? The specific scenario matters.

Edit: I'm typing this on my phone, and it sucks, so I'm trying to be brief.

The frame of reference I was thinking about is how this effects non-residents from all of PA's surrounding states who were carrying in PA on a UT permit up until Kane decided to revoke reciprocity. This would also apply to people who used to carry in PA before the AZ reciprocity was revoked also.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#5
Emoticon;147430 Wrote:
Curmudgeon;147428 Wrote:There have been recent changes, changes in reciprocity, and changes in case law.

First, are we talking about PA residents, or residents of other states visiting or driving through PA? The specific scenario matters.

Edit: I'm typing this on my phone, and it sucks, so I'm trying to be brief.

The frame of reference I was thinking about is how this effects non-residents from all of PA's surrounding states who were carrying in PA on a UT permit up until Kane decided to revoke reciprocity. This would also apply to people who used to carry in PA before the AZ reciprocity was revoked also.

OK, so using you as an example, with your Utah CWP you can carry a loaded handgun by vehicle and open carry outside the vehicle anywhere in PA EXCEPT Philly which only recognizes a PA LTCF or permit from a state with which we have reciprocity.

The recent case law I referred to previously is that this no longer applies to PA rezidents, only non-residents such as yourself. That judge had to be smoking some crazy crack to read the statute and rule the way he did, but that's the way it went.

If I were you I would just be real clear I was OC upon exiting the vehicle, probably wouldn't hurt to be OC in it as well.

Cool?
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#6
Emoticon;147423 Wrote:I was reading another carry forum where someone had mentioned that you may carry a firearm in your vehicle in PA if you have a valid carry permit in any state irregardless of reciprocity when the issue of the PA-UT reciprocity agreements had changed came up, you just cannot get out of the vehicle and conceal. I did not thing this was true and I was not aware of this clause previously, so I did a little digging into it and found the following..

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106:

Section B-15 states:

Quote:(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.

Then there is another part where it says:

Quote:18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

^this doesn't seem to specify a license issued by PA.


Let's not forget Paragraph 11 of that same statute:

Quote:(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

@Csmith: No where does it say "home state permit".

The potential issues with (15), in my mind, are

(i) seems to say that the state that issued your permit must honor the PA permit. So if a NJ resident was carrying in his car with a NJ permit (yeah, I know, just go with it), that situation would NOT fall under this provision since NJ doesn't honor PA.

(ii) seems to say that if our "illustrious" AG decides that the laws of the state that issued the permit you are vehicle carrying are not similar then that permit would NOT fall under this provision either.
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#7
mrjam2jab;147571 Wrote:Let's not forget Paragraph 11 of that same statute:

Quote:(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

@Csmith: No where does it say "home state permit".

The potential issues with (15), in my mind, are

(i) seems to say that the state that issued your permit must honor the PA permit. So if a NJ resident was carrying in his car with a NJ permit (yeah, I know, just go with it), that situation would NOT fall under this provision since NJ doesn't honor PA.

(ii) seems to say that if our "illustrious" AG decides that the laws of the state that issued the permit you are vehicle carrying are not similar then that permit would NOT fall under this provision either.

Yep that's exactly why I find this particular statute so confusing. You did a much better articulating the murky-ness than I did.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#8
From our DA's office....Exceptions to 6106....

(1) Police, Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, etc.

(2) Members of the military – on duty.

(3) Enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive firearms from the US or from PA

(4) Any person engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded. NO restriction on storage

(5) Officers or employees of the US duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm

(6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables, and other property in the discharge of such duties

(7) Gunsmiths or dealers or their agents carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business

(8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper:
To or from place of abode or business to a place of purchase, repair, sale or appraisal
Moving from one place of abode or business to another or to a recreation or vacation home or dwelling or back
Recovery of stolen property
To or from a place of instruction for safe handling
To or from a place of consignment or to a location for safekeeping.
“Secure Wrapper” is not defined…but “just under the seat” probably doesn’t qualify…

(9) Licensed hunters going to or from their hunting location (Sportsman’s permit required)

(10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season. (Sportsman’s permit required)

(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

(12) A person who has a lawfully issued license and that said license expired within 6 months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the license.

(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm and who is operating a motor vehicle registered in the person’s name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

(14) Person engaged in interstate transportation if compliant with federal law – 18 U.S.C ss 921(a)(3), 926A:
[The] firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle:
Provided, that in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
- 18 U.S.C. §§ 921, 926

(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), PROVIDED:
(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.
If you have a question on reciprocity…bother the AG’s…
http://www.usacarry.com
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov

(16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109 (f)
Essentially everything you need for a license, plus those in the military returning from deployment get a 90 day extension on the expiration of license exception.
steelcityk9cop, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#9
I also find it interesting that section 11 seems to be referring to the licensing of firearms themselves and not necessarily LTCF or permits. I wonder if one could read that to mean that a person from Massachusetts with a license for their weapon itself, but no permit could actually legally vehicle carry?
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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