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Health care--legally speaking.
#1
I want to preface this by saying I love my medical care, and my kids are the first ones to get as much medical care as they need. I absolutely am in full support of professional family medical care. My kids are also vaccinated (mostly, with a few exceptions as far as individual shots). I have no religious beliefs against medical care whatsoever. My kids always have yearly well visits and dental care, as well as eye care.

With that in mind, I want to submit this food for thought:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/ap/state/pa/n...bb63f.html

Quote:A Philadelphia judge has ordered that a couple who believe in faith healing over medicine be held without bail on third-degree murder charges in the April death of their 8-month-old son.
Herbert and Catherine Schaible (SHY'-bul) are charged in the death of their baby, Brandon. They'd been convicted of involuntary manslaughter after another child, 2-year-old Kent, died in 2009. Prosecutors say they prayed over Brandon for two weeks before he died, and never called a doctor.........................

The couple's attorney says they've never missed a court date and surrendered willingly. Their seven surviving children are in foster care.

Here are the questions I have regarding this case.

1. If medical care is a paid service, are we required to use it?

2. If medical cures were not available for sickness 100 years ago, does it make it murder if we do not use the "cures" today? Then, would this apply to every new cure they come up with, whether or not we are interested in using it?

3. Is medical care a privilege, or a right?

4. If medical care is a privilege, why would we be required to use it?

5. If medical care is a right, then why do we have to spend so much money on it? On the other side of the coin, if it is a right, can we not waive it?

6. If they had been in another country and had not had American-style health care available, would this have still been manslaughter?

7. If the baby had died for reasons other than religious reasons--lack of funds, lack of knowledge on the part of the parents, or a different illness....would this have still been manslaughter? What about doctor error?


That said, I can't imagine parents not taking their kid to the doctor. I could never imagine being or believing like this family. But...my question boils down to...is it criminal if they do not? Or just sad and stupid? Evidently our government says that it is criminal.

Interesting thoughts, especially in light of abortion rights.

Related discussions would be whether or not our children should be forced to undergo violent chemotherapy, which there have been a couple cases of children who went through one bout of chemo, and then the parents have decided to go to other avenues rather than a second and more dangerous round, and have gotten in trouble over that decision.

So, verdict: Should this be a criminal case, or not? And if it should be, where should the line be drawn regarding health and medical care and children, and who has the right to make life and death decisions for our children and ourselves? What is medical care: A right, a privilege, or a law? Who pays for it? Who gets in trouble if they do not avail themselves of medical care?

As one last thought...I thought, "Well, the babies were too young to make health care decisions for themselves, so it is the parents' legal responsibility to make sure they are taken care of." Good thought...but then we'd need to go into abortion when we are talking about children who cannot mentally reason things through for themselves. I'd rather not talk about abortion though...but it just seems like this legal case is really sitting on the fence as far as where personal and individual rights start and stop.

Emotionally speaking, yeah I think this family is ridiculous and should not be raising a boatload of kids. Legally speaking, I'm not so sure it is our responsibility to arrest people like this. Thus the discussion.
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#2
Low-information article has low information.

It doesn't say what was wrong with the baby. If it was something that didn't appear to be life threatening, there's no reason why they should have to take the baby to the doctor.

I wonder how those charges are going to jive with a case from a few years ago where a JW family refused to get medical treatment for their child and it determined that they had that right under religious grounds.

Article with more information: http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?sectio...id=9112454
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#3
Like we saw with Gerald Hung, I think sometimes what is legal and Constitutional is so abhorrent to the DA that they run it through the justice system to make people prove it and put them through hell.

And they don't care what the law is, they will abuse their power.

That said, did this child really have to die over this?
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#4
Like we saw with Gerald Ung, I think sometimes what is legal and Constitutional is so abhorrent to the DA that they run it through the justice system to make people prove it and put them through hell.

And they don't care what the law is, they will abuse their power.

That said, did this child really have to die over this?
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#5
This is just all around fucked up.

7 other kids now in foster care...poor kids.
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#6
Those other kids are much better off.

Justin
[Image: pafoasig.png]
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#7
JustinHEMI;102993 Wrote:Those other kids are much better off.

Justin

Maybe. Depends on the foster home, depends on the original home. We'll never know.

The issue is, though, under what circumstances should a parent lose their parenting rights?

And if it's okay to remove kids who die under lack of certain medical care...then what does that say about medical care in our country? And about who has the right to make those medical decisions for us? I think many of you are against the government making medical decisions for women outside of their control. So thus, should families also have the freedom to make medical decisions for their children?
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#8
As an update, looks like the children died of pneumonia/strep infections.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-...iladelphia

Again...I think it's ridiculous, and the parents are idiots. However it just opens up the question of who has medical decision-making rights? I mean, they didn't give their children the bacteria....they just chose not to treat it with traditional methods. There is no information on whether or not they tried to treat it with natural methods or if they just left it in the corner to die.... which I think is fairly important to the case. However...is it a crime to not use antibiotics or not treat your children with it? Eh. It's a tough call IMO but it lays down precedent for other situations that may not be as easy to make judgements on.
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#9
The government has no right to force medical care. The parents have a responsibility to attempt to care for their children. Bottom line this prosecution is wrong legally, the parents were wrong morally. Who gives a shit about your, mine, or someone else's moral compass though. I don't know how you balance these two things but when in doubt the government is wrong.

[Image: 51AcJOD0Z0L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-stic..._OU01_.jpg]

An excellent book by the way.
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#10
ExcelToExcel;103042 Wrote:The government has no right to force medical care. The parents have a responsibility to attempt to care for their children. Bottom line this prosecution is wrong legally, the parents were wrong morally. Who gives a shit about your, mine, or someone else's moral compass though. I don't know how you balance these two things but when in doubt the government is wrong.

[Image: 51AcJOD0Z0L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-stic..._OU01_.jpg]

An excellent book by the way.

I disagree. Parents who criminally neglect their children, should lose their children.

I don't know all the facts of this case, so I won't pass judgement on it just yet, but if it comes down to they simply refused medical treatment for a preventable and curable ailment, based only on their religious beliefs, then I think they are guilty of a crime, and should lose their kids.

Or are we suggesting that the parents religious beliefs trump the childs right to life?



If the practice of your religion is to let your child die, then you need a new religion.

And the government should intervene.

Justin
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