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Home Depot now requires you to show LTCF
#21
Looks like we disagree on what right a retailer has.

Do they have the right to deny service to a customer? That depends on if the customer has "protected" status.

Should they have the right to deny service? I think so. If Home Depot doesn't want to sell me a miter saw because I'm hispanic, then I don't want to buy one from them. I don't think they should be forced by federal law to serve me. But that's the law currently, so they have to.

Do they have the right to demand I provide some sort of government identification? absolutely not. They can deny service if I refuse, of course, but there is no law stating that any private entity (which a corporation is) can demand another private entity produce a government issued ID on demand. They can't demand a driver's ID anymore than they can demand a LTCF.

Refusing to provide ID to a LEO on demand can, in some circumstances, result in an arrest. For example, a driver's ID during a traffic stop, or a LTCF after being legally detained while carrying a concealed firearm. These are instances where a citizen is required to produce ID. A store manager has no more right to demand an ID than a vendor at a flea market.

Can they ask? Sure, why not. It's their right to ask. Are you obligated to produce it? Nope, not at all. It's their property, sure, but that's irrelevant. The relevant issue is: state law makes no mention of a private citizen or entity having the right to demand another private citizen or entity to produce a government issued ID. Home Depot is clearly confused about this, believing that state law gives it the same authority as a government recognized LE agency. If they believe they can demand a person produces ID, who's to say they won't soon take it upon themselves to start detaining people they think might be violating state law, as they interpret it?

No...Home Depot does NOT have the right to demand ID, they only have the right to ask. They can deny service all they like, as it's private property, but the right to demand ID is reserved for law enforcement.

I take issue with this, because years ago, the mall ninja tactical squad of the Steamtown Mall surrounded me, and their "Captain" insisted that, by law, I had to show him my ID. According to that uniformed clown, if I didn't, he had the right to detain me until the cops showed up. I refused. He then said I needed to leave, to which I happily agreed to, because I hated being in that fucking mall.

Later on, I spoke to an actual cop, and told him this story, and his response was to laugh...and laugh, and laugh. "Fucking mall security? The only thing they have the

right to do is tell you to leave. No one has the right to make you hand over your permit, except cops and judges. Fuckin' clown."
Unbanned since September 2012.
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#22
Shadowline;134451 Wrote:I don't see the issue. It's private property, and in exchange for you carrying in their store they want you to show an LTCF. Don't like it, don't shop there. Like it or not, their property rights trump your right to carry.

I pretty much agree with this.

I also agree with JAH that they do not have the right to demand ID.

So "Show us your papers or you have to leave" means I leave and don't shop there.

It's the age of the internet, brick and mortar stores are dying--even the mega chains like Home Depot.

They need customers far more than customers need them, there is nothing they sell that can't be had elsewhere.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#23
Camper;134470 Wrote:I also agree with JAH that they do not have the right to demand ID.

So "Show us your papers or you have to leave" means I leave and don't shop there.

It's the age of the internet, brick and mortar stores are dying--even the mega chains like Home Depot.

I really looks like none of us disagree but it's a matter of semantics. I can demand to see your license before I allow you access to my property. Rather then produce it you may leave.

Gestapo may demand papers and if you choose not to produce them you could be shot. The difference is choice.

Nowhere in the 2 original posts this was the only time "demand" was used:
Stonewall;134416 Wrote:Me: The law says I must show to a law enforcement officer upon lawful demand
Take this trouble for me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ~ Max von Stephanitz

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#24
Next time ask the manager to cite the exact law and have them show you EXACTLY where it states that a store manager has the right to demand you show them proof you are lawfully carrying.
NRA (Life), GOA, FOAC (Life), NAGR, AMGOA

RocketFoot's Minion since 09-07-2012
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#25
Um, a store can demand anything they want. They can demand that you do 25 jumping jacks before entering the store. If you don't want to do 25 jumping jacks, then leave.
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#26
bac0nfat;134484 Wrote:Um, a store can demand anything they want. They can demand that you do 25 jumping jacks before entering the store. If you don't want to do 25 jumping jacks, then leave.

But if they claim it's the "law" then challenge that...
NRA (Life), GOA, FOAC (Life), NAGR, AMGOA

RocketFoot's Minion since 09-07-2012
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#27
bigdawgbeav;134493 Wrote:
bac0nfat;134484 Wrote:Um, a store can demand anything they want. They can demand that you do 25 jumping jacks before entering the store. If you don't want to do 25 jumping jacks, then leave.

But if they claim it's the "law" then challenge that...

Who cares what they claim? Whether they're correct or not about the law, they are still allowed to demand anything. The reason for their demand is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I see why people are upset and they want to challenge it. But my point is that in the end, Home Depot can make any decision they want, no matter what the law says. At that point, there's nothing you can do besides take your money elsewhere.
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#28
bac0nfat;134494 Wrote:
bigdawgbeav;134493 Wrote:But if they claim it's the "law" then challenge that...

Who cares what they claim? Whether they're correct or not about the law, they are still allowed to demand anything. The reason for their demand is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I see why people are upset and they want to challenge it. But my point is that in the end, Home Depot can make any decision they want, no matter what the law says. At that point, there's nothing you can do besides take your money elsewhere.

Because it's just possible they are only doing it because they think it's the law. I would think this would be a good place to begin a discussion, either locally or with corporate. First, let's clear up any misunderstandings and get to what's so. Especially since Home Depot's policy has been pretty wisely understood for some time now, either there has been a misunderstanding, or there has been a change. I want to know which before I decide what to do next. I'll work to clear up any confusion or misunderstanding first, then I'll shop elsewhere if necessary.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#29
An example from our own space: Wicen's Shooting Range requires anyone open carrying on the property to have an LTCF. Your choice is to not open carry, leave, or have an LTCF. The part of the law that applies is that they can require what they choose to if you're on their property.
gascolator, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Nov 2012.
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#30
Curmudgeon;134504 Wrote:
bac0nfat;134494 Wrote:Who cares what they claim? Whether they're correct or not about the law, they are still allowed to demand anything. The reason for their demand is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I see why people are upset and they want to challenge it. But my point is that in the end, Home Depot can make any decision they want, no matter what the law says. At that point, there's nothing you can do besides take your money elsewhere.

Because it's just possible they are only doing it because they think it's the law. I would think this would be a good place to begin a discussion, either locally or with corporate. First, let's clear up any misunderstandings and get to what's so. Especially since Home Depot's policy has been pretty wisely understood for some time now, either there has been a misunderstanding, or there has been a change. I want to know which before I decide what to do next. I'll work to clear up any confusion or misunderstanding first, then I'll shop elsewhere if necessary.

Gotcha, no disagreement there. My post was more directly to the people who were implying it was illegal for Home Depot to demand ID.
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