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Household member was 302'd tonight
#1
A member of my household was 302'd tonight, he has been having alcohol problems for a long time so hopefully he finally gets the help he needs. What does this mean for his guns that are in the house? I already moved my guns from the house just to be safe
Stonewall, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#2
IANAL, but 302 is just an evaluation. When you get up to 303-306 (involuntary commitment) you then technically become a prohibited person. Someone will need to remove the firearms while the commitment is going on and disperse them.

If you believe he could harm himself you could remove them and put them in separate storage somewhere--so long as you don't deny him access to his own property. If this situation gets worse I would looking at terminating your cohabitation pronto.

Also... I forgot the obvious---next best thing is to just remove all the ammunition out of the house and sell it off. Guns can't do shit if there's no ammo. I'm assuming the Sheriff or the cops were called out since 302's usually start out that way...

If you feel like you're in a dangerous situation you should definitely tell whichever senior LEO(s) handled the job earlier.
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#3
I am only living here until I close on a house. His guns are locked in a gun safe, more than likely he can not remember the combo to get it open. Police and ambulance where called, I was not here but was told that the police said they could not take him against his will but he was talked into going in the ambulance voluntarily.
Stonewall, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#4
ArcticSplash;155278 Wrote:IANAL, but 302 is just an evaluation. When you get up to 303-306 (involuntary commitment) you then technically become a prohibited person. Someone will need to remove the firearms while the commitment is going on and disperse them.

If you believe he could harm himself you could remove them and put them in separate storage somewhere--so long as you don't deny him access to his own property. If this situation gets worse I would looking at terminating your cohabitation pronto.

Also... I forgot the obvious---next best thing is to just remove all the ammunition out of the house and sell it off. Guns can't do shit if there's no ammo. I'm assuming the Sheriff or the cops were called out since 302's usually start out that way...

If you feel like you're in a dangerous situation you should definitely tell whichever senior LEO(s) handled the job earlier.


No.

302 is involuntary commitment and makes one prohibited.
A 303 is essentially an extension of a 302 in order to keep the patient for a longer period of time than a 302 does.

201 is voluntary commitment and is not prohibitive.


Ammo is also just as taboo as guns to a prohibited person, so yeah, they must not be accessible either.

There is some disagreement in regards to what the actual requirements are.
On one hand keeping the prohibited items locked up with no way for the prohibited person to have access satisfies the legal requirement.
On the other hand Google "constructive possession" for arguments that suggest that "a key" or a "lock" is not good enough - that the prohibited person could use items in the home to defeat the method of "lockup".
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#5
Stonewall you are going to want to find, to a certainty, whether he was committed voluntarily or involuntarily. If he was committed involuntarily, under PA C.S. 6105 he has 60 days to sell/transfer any prohibited items "to another eligible person who is not a member of the prohibited person's household."

Not legal advice just sound wisdom> Any other persons within the household who wish to retain possession of their guns and/or ammo must exercise extreme diligence to ensure the prohibited person can have NO CONTACT with these items whatsoever. They should not even have the possibility of the appearance of having access, know what I mean?
It is a felony offense for a prohibited person to have access to prohibited items.

http://www.pa2a.org/wiki.php?wid=21

Getting everything out of the house sounds like the easiest and best solution, at least until something can be worked out. It may take some doing, including a very thorough records request from the hospital and maybe even an experienced attorney to determine the exact status of his commitment. Sometimes mistakes are made.
Good luck. Seriously.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#6
Stonewall;155285 Wrote:I am only living here until I close on a house. His guns are locked in a gun safe, more than likely he can not remember the combo to get it open. Police and ambulance where called, I was not here but was told that the police said they could not take him against his will but he was talked into going in the ambulance voluntarily.

This, to me, is a good sign, but you are going to want something a lot more substantial to go on. Personnel at the hospital could commit him under a 302 if they believe it is necessary based on his behavior once he gets there.

It is all going to come down to what is in the actual records. Anything else is BS.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#7
Curmudgeon;155290 Wrote:
Stonewall;155285 Wrote:I am only living here until I close on a house. His guns are locked in a gun safe, more than likely he can not remember the combo to get it open. Police and ambulance where called, I was not here but was told that the police said they could not take him against his will but he was talked into going in the ambulance voluntarily.

This, to me, is a good sign, but you are going to want something a lot more substantial to go on. Personnel at the hospital could commit him under a 302 if they believe it is necessary based on his behavior once he gets there.

It is all going to come down to what is in the actual records. Anything else is BS.

He went voluntarily and then had an evaluation and he got 302'd, I was kind of surprised they 302'd him since I am sure he was intoxicated (he is always intoxicated) and they still are not sure if is odd behavior is from a stroke or not. He was warned months ago that he would die if he didn't cut back on his alcohol and a stroke was likely, he also had early signs of alcohol dimensia
Stonewall, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#8
Stonewall;155291 Wrote:
Curmudgeon;155290 Wrote:This, to me, is a good sign, but you are going to want something a lot more substantial to go on. Personnel at the hospital could commit him under a 302 if they believe it is necessary based on his behavior once he gets there.

It is all going to come down to what is in the actual records. Anything else is BS.

He went voluntarily and then had an evaluation and he got 302'd, I was kind of surprised they 302'd him since I am sure he was intoxicated (he is always intoxicated) and they still are not sure if is odd behavior is from a stroke or not. He was warned months ago that he would die if he didn't cut back on his alcohol and a stroke was likely, he also had early signs of alcohol dimensia


Certainly sounds like a 302 might be appropriate for him, loathe as I am to say such a thing about a person. The reality is firearms are deadly and the human mind can be fragile. It sounds as though you yourself are making a pretty strong case for keeping him away from firearms.

As I said above, and I linked the actual statute, he (or someone acting on his behalf, I guess) has 60 days from point of becoming prohibited to sell or transfer everything away from him.

Have a big sale, or, empty the safe and drag it all to Freedom Armory (for example). They do consignments, they take a small percentage, I think 10%, 15%, something like that, and it goes into their bound book then and there, instantly getting everything out of his name, and providing a paper trail that such was done.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#9
Thanks emptymag for that clarification on the 302. I didn't realize that 302 was involuntary I figured it was just to evaluate to an upgrade to 303, not that 303 was just an extension to a 302.

If I were you I'd try to keep him relaxed and out of the house for a while until you remove the guns out of the house--and like Curmudgeon says, you need to see the hospital's paperwork. If he was confined under psych eval, he's on the road to "prohibited person" classification and you need to get all that junk out of the house and away from him.

Ultimately, if you can't get the stuff transferred and sold off, you can always call the Sheriff to come down and remove it. The big problem with that is that you will not recover one cent that was invested into any of that stuff [likely that is money you could be used for paying medical expenses and medication].

I hate to hear you're in this sucky situation, but safety is more important than anything--not just yours but his as well.
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#10
He was just 302'd yesterday evening so he is still being held at the hospital. He was not threatening to hurt anyone or himself but he thought that my uncle, who wasn't here, was trapped under the furnace in the shop. He had wood wedged under it to hold it up and went and got my neighbor to help him get my uncle out. My neighbor helped block up the furnace to try and keep him calm until ambulance and police arrived.

We will probably have to get a locksmith to get the safe open, is there any reason they can not be gifted to my sister or myself if I close on the new house in a couple weeks? He has some guns that belonged to my grandfather so we really do not want to have to sell them all.
Stonewall, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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