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Household member was 302'd tonight
#21
He came home today so apparently he wasn't 302'd or it was reversed, I will have to talk to my mother this weekend. They are saying it is all being caused by him coming off of alcohol so the next few days might be pretty rough

I am currently renting an apartment attached to their house but even if he wasn't 302'd I will still keep my firearms at my fiancé house until we close on a new house, I do still have one carry gun but take it to work with me.
Stonewall, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#22
Emptymag;155434 Wrote:
Curmudgeon;155424 Wrote:And I would feel the same way, but regardless of his recovery, as it stands right now his 302 is virtually irreversible in PA, and that makes him federally prohibited as well, all this due to (bad) recent case law.

It's done. He's done. The items can be kept in the family, but he can never again have anything to do with them.

It pains me to be so blunt and I hope I'm not coming across as hurtful, but like certain crimes a 302 used to be something a good attorney could clear up and get a persons 2A rights restored. That all changed in the past year, thanks to an activist judge and a (maybe) inexperienced attorney. We lost our avenue for restoration of 2A rights after a 302.

Now it will require a change in the law to correct it, and in PA lately that's been a long slow painful process on even the most minor changes in the UFA.

While that all sounds quite accurate, I can assure you that a 302 can be reversed - IF it was not done properly/patient did not meet the criteria for being involuntarily committed.
There are very specific "things" that have had to occurred - it's not as simple as "Well, I think he's crazy".

And yes, even now, after the law made it "impossible" to do so.

I've seen it happen. It just takes a lot of money and a workable case.


Yes, I think I've heard of one case of a restoration. My point was, and what I wrote was, we used to have an "avenue" for restoration of rights after a 302, and that "avenue" has been removed.

I did not mean to imply that it was impossible, but when Stonewall looks into it and sees what is involved, and the costs, especially now, I'm betting he'll think it's impossible.

The opening that is left to folks is the chance that a mistake was made when he was 302'd, a mistake that a good attorney can convince a reasonable judge should be reversed, or stricken. In any case where a 302 is truly legitimate those chances fall to something very near zero.

It's good that he has 60 days. Hopefully there will be some questions answered by then that are not answerable now, and a copy of all of his medical records relating to this incident can be obtained and scrutinized, hopefully an experienced attorney.

Out near the Pittsburgh area there is an attorney (I can't recall his name) who is so good at reversing 302's he has written papers and gives seminars to other attorneys on how to do it. He truly is the "go to" guy in PA for stuff like this, if you can afford him.

I'm not making anything up here. The vast majority of what I have written is what I have learned from him, as well as I can remember it.

after saying all that, still, I am not an attorney, and even the family does not know all the facts yet, it seems. Despite the overall negative tone of most of this thread, let's hope for the best, and I will remind Stonewall once again, the family member has 60 days. Don't rush into any action that he, you, or the family will regret later.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#23
Stonewall;155436 Wrote:He came home today so apparently he wasn't 302'd or it was reversed, I will have to talk to my mother this weekend. They are saying it is all being caused by him coming off of alcohol so the next few days might be pretty rough

I am currently renting an apartment attached to their house but even if he wasn't 302'd I will still keep my firearms at my fiancé house until we close on a new house, I do still have one carry gun but take it to work with me.

Well that changes everything. Ok, false alarm. Everybody back to work. Rolleyes

Stonewall, just to be safe, see if you can convince him to get a copy of his medical records for this incident. If you've read through this forum and esp PAFOA you know that the records don't always follow reality. Get it on paper, there is much at stake. If he went to York Hospital the medical records dept is in a separate building right on George Street, just about 1 block north of the hospital, on the left, just past The Colonial Shopping Center. You just walk in, tell them you want everything, ALL RECORDS, fill out a form and they handle the rest through the mail. IIRC they have to look everything up first to determine how much there is and therefore how much to bill for the records. They mail a bill, you pay, then they mail you the records. It can take a couple weeks or 3.

Any paper showing that he was:
A) never 302'd, or
B) a 302 was reversed or rescinded,
would be paperwork worth keeping right in that safe, wouldn't it?
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#24
Thanks for all the advice curmudgeon. I will pass this info to my mom, my father doesn't like me so we have not spoken to each other in about a year.
Stonewall, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#25
I'm sorry you got the idea that I thought you suggested anything unethical because that was the furthest thought from my mind.

My comments regarding the suggestion of a legal representative was actually prompted by other suggestions and comments and I merely combined them into one general post.

Forgive me - I in no way was hinting that you were making those suggestions.


Curmudgeon;155402 Wrote:Where did I ever suggest any unethical profiteering or gain on anyone's part? Stonewall could sell the items, I didn't say he should keep the money. I think you're reading too much into what I've written.

Step 1 is getting all prohibited items out of his name and out of his home. This can very likely be accomplished by keeping in the family somewhere, just at a different address. It's too late to worry about the old guy being upset about *something* being done, he risks multiple felonies. From the OP he sounds completely incapable of being released and seeing to this properly, someone has to step in.

I only suggested consignment at Freedom Armory because 1) it is geographically very close and, 2) they would get more money, likely faster, using this method than to wholesale them to a dealer and take a beating.

I have no clue what's in that safe, or what it's monetary or heirloom value is. I was only trying to answer the legal question/issue to the best of my knowledge and the statutes.

It certainly now sounds like a big ol' family meeting may be in order, after calling in a safe-smith. Beyond 60 days the family likely risks confiscation. That just sounds like a mess worth avoiding.
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#26
mingomom;155442 Wrote:I'm sorry you got the idea that I thought you suggested anything unethical because that was the furthest thought from my mind.

My comments regarding the suggestion of a legal representative was actually prompted by other suggestions and comments and I merely combined them into one general post.

Forgive me - I in no way was hinting that you were making those suggestions.


Curmudgeon;155402 Wrote:Where did I ever suggest any unethical profiteering or gain on anyone's part? Stonewall could sell the items, I didn't say he should keep the money. I think you're reading too much into what I've written.

Step 1 is getting all prohibited items out of his name and out of his home. This can very likely be accomplished by keeping in the family somewhere, just at a different address. It's too late to worry about the old guy being upset about *something* being done, he risks multiple felonies. From the OP he sounds completely incapable of being released and seeing to this properly, someone has to step in.

I only suggested consignment at Freedom Armory because 1) it is geographically very close and, 2) they would get more money, likely faster, using this method than to wholesale them to a dealer and take a beating.

I have no clue what's in that safe, or what it's monetary or heirloom value is. I was only trying to answer the legal question/issue to the best of my knowledge and the statutes.

It certainly now sounds like a big ol' family meeting may be in order, after calling in a safe-smith. Beyond 60 days the family likely risks confiscation. That just sounds like a mess worth avoiding.

No offense believe me, I just wanted to be clear and make sure what I was trying to say was clear. Most of what I posted in this thread was posted via my Android phone, a device I find marginally acceptable for merely reading through some threads. It really shows it's shortcomings when I try to contribute in any serious way. I usually refrain from posting that way because I know better, and then sometimes the temptation to jump in gets the better of me and I give in.

Since I neglected to say it earlier, you raised some very valid, timely, and critical points with respect to the law and the property of another, issues that were on my mind but went unsaid. They needed saying. Thanks for jumping in when you did.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#27
Leaving aside whether he was actually 302'd or not, he clearly had a psychotic / delusional break. Is allowing him continued access to firearms a reasonable thing for a family member to do?
gascolator, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Nov 2012.
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#28
gascolator;155508 Wrote:Leaving aside whether he was actually 302'd or not, he clearly had a psychotic / delusional break. Is allowing him continued access to firearms a reasonable thing for a family member to do?

My thought exactly. However without the 302, removing the guns would essentially be theft. It's a damn shame you can't just change the combo on the safe so he could retain possession but not have quick access to the firearms.
Ammunition, it's the new lead bullion. Buy it cheap and stack it deep.
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