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Long distance rifle/caliber ideas
#1
I am interested in getting into some longer distance rifle shooting.
Being from the Williamsport area makes me fortunate to have a 1000 yard range in the county.
Actually 20-25 minutes away.

I spoke last year with a gentleman who shoots at the 1000 yard club on a regular basis.
He says you cannot shoot a firearm from off the rack and compete.
You must have a custom built rife and he states to be somewhat competitive you must spend a minimum of $3500 on your custom rifle.

So my questions to everyone are:

1) Do you believe someone can purchase off the rack and be competitive?
2) If one was to try this what caliber would you choose to compete with and why?
3) Which rifle manufacturer and model would you choose and why?
4) What optics would you choose for on it?

I am interested to hear what you people think on this subject.
Many (if not all!!!) of you came from over there ----} and so I know we have some good knowledgeable people out there.

Thanks.

God bless!!

PPP
Proud to be a member of pa2a.org since 11:18 PM Sept 7, 2012!
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#2
Pistol Packin Preacher;14182 Wrote:So my questions to everyone are:

1) Do you believe someone can purchase off the rack and be competitive?
2) If one was to try this what caliber would you choose to compete with and why?
3) Which rifle manufacturer and model would you choose and why?
4) What optics would you choose for on it?


First off, the $3,500 is what you might spend for a "good" rifle. And while I wouldn't just jump in with an off the rack rifle, doesn't mean you can't.

How about this, I will throw together a build, in .308 for $2k, or as close as I can get to it.

Stevens 200 in .308. Price, $335
Nice choate stock for $220
(http://www.midwayusa.com/product/185114/...site-black)
Right around $250 for a decent barrel. Not top of the line, but workable.

For optics, I'm not going to skimp. Bushnell elite 6500. Right around $800.


Right now, just looking at $1605. That leaves plenty of a budget for other accessories. Maybe a good trigger? $250. $1855.

An inexpensive range bag for $50. Now at $1905.

And that leaves $75 for pizza, and beer.

Mind you, that is just off the top of my head for a rifle that could compete. I might choose a different stock, and a different caliber. But in my thoughts, this would be a good rifle to "compete" with. I can't say for sure that it would win you any medals. But it would put you on paper if you do your part. And besides, you are looking at around $750-$800 just for a decent rifle to begin with.

Should elaborate on it a bit. A rifle off the rack can be competative. But I would only use it for fun plinking. Fact of the matter, rifles are made well. Few are made 1000 yard well. Even then, it depends on the accuracy you want. 1MOA is going to be enough to hit a decent sized target, assuming you can read wind and conditions.

Myself, I want to build a .223 for 1000 yard shooting. At that range, that is a less than ideal catridge, and every little fluke is going to be much more noticable, which is the reason I want to go that route. I want to learn to read the wind better than I already can. And I want to be able to adjust for little things, when I can see larger ramifications.

As for using the stevens, lets face it. Savage parts, without the savage price. You don't need the accutrigger/stock, so why pay more for them?

As for the optics, I know it is overkill for most people's needs. That being said, for someone who is used to shooting normally at 100-250 yards, a jump to 1000 is a big jump. Being able to get a clear, concise view of the target is something I stress.
This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. -Ben Franklin
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#3
.338 Lapua Magnum
Savage Accu-trigger
Savage Accu-stock
6x24 power scope with good rings and mounts
Reloading equipment

That alone will keep you under a grand and should hit 1,000 yards with enough practice... At 1,000 yards, its more about the shooter than the gun...
I love guns... And boobs...
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#4
Pistol Packin Preacher;14182 Wrote:I am interested in getting into some longer distance rifle shooting.
Being from the Williamsport area makes me fortunate to have a 1000 yard range in the county.
Actually 20-25 minutes away.

I spoke last year with a gentleman who shoots at the 1000 yard club on a regular basis.
He says you cannot shoot a firearm from off the rack and compete.
You must have a custom built rife and he states to be somewhat competitive you must spend a minimum of $3500 on your custom rifle.

So my questions to everyone are:

1) Do you believe someone can purchase off the rack and be competitive?
2) If one was to try this what caliber would you choose to compete with and why?
3) Which rifle manufacturer and model would you choose and why?
4) What optics would you choose for on it?

I am interested to hear what you people think on this subject.
Many (if not all!!!) of you came from over there ----} and so I know we have some good knowledgeable people out there.

Thanks.

God bless!!

PPP

Honestly, there's way too many variables to answer your question yet. The first thing I'd ask is "what kind of shooting are they doing at 1,000 yards?" There's all kinds of shooting and classes of shooting to 1,000 yards. Some guys just have a "tactical rifle" and shoot 1,000 yards. Some guys build "rail guns" that are so massive you need several guys to carry them to the bench they sit on. Some people shoot certain classes that are limited to particular calibers and chamberings, weight classes, limited accessories, etc. etc. It's very well possible that you're talking to a guy that is a "Benchrest" shooter, and he's talking about BR style rifles. There's a big difference between trying to hit targets, cold bore at 1,000 yards, or at UKD in varying conditions under time constraints, and trying to shoot small groups at 1,000 yards under time constraints. Equipment for 1,000 yard shooting is dictated by the type of shooting your doing, the rules, the targets, and lots of other things. Some of the rifles that have been proposed already may not fit the rules of some 1,000 yard competitions in certain disciplines. Others would put hits on target at 1,000 yards, but wouldn't hold a candle to a full blown custom 1K BR rifle where guys are running custom dies built for their chamber, neck turning, loading with jeweler scales, checking "run out" to the thousandth of an inch, point or trimming meplats on bullets, measuring seating depth off the ogive to the thousandth, weighing and sorting brass and bullets by weight to the nearest tenth grain, etc. etc.

So again, the first thing I'd like to know is, "What kind of 1,000 yard shooting are you talking about?"
Tomcat088, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#5
I suspected that we were talking about 1000 yard BR competition, so I looked. We're talking about "Williamsport Club". http://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg01.html http://www.pa1000yard.com/ . So we're talking about one of the top 1K clubs in the country, and where the World Open shoot is held every year. They measure all their groups for score and size with 10 shots for all classes. This is VERY strict and accurate shooting, whereas other organizations measure for score and size with 5 shot groups with light guns and 10 shot strings on heavy guns.

In all honesty, regardless of what other people are going to tell you, you're not going to be able to compete with any other set up besides a very expensive BR rifle. You won't only have to buy an expensive rife, you'll also be in for a very expensive reloading set up, and spend meticulous amounts of time learning to load as anal as it gets. Some guys will help teach you, but most of them have their reloading room set up for their stuff, and their volume, and they aren't going to be happy or very willing to change it to let you load your stuff at their place. If they are willing to do it, they must really like you because they're giving away part of their consistency to help you. Honestly, it's not something that most people like to do, or are willing to spend so much time on. We're talking buying expensive match grade brass, and still sorting it by case volume, weight, etc. and doing the same with match grade bullets. Then you'll be annealing, fireforming, neck turning, etc. You'll be pointing or trimming meplats on match grade bullets. You'll be seating with a micrometer seater die, checking the seating depth off the ogive to ensure it's to the thousandth of an inch accuracy. You'll be checking the run out (how plumb the bullet is), to ensure they will all seat the same way in the chamber, etc.

I don't want to disappoint you with this either, but in all honesty, even with all of this, you won't be competitive for several years. Even with the best rifle and ammo, you still have to learn the techniques of shooting to the discipline, and find what works for you. This would mean free recoil, pulled down on the foreend, shouldering the rifle, etc. You'll have to decide if you're a "runner" or a "picker" with regards to how you like to use the wind. You'll also have to invest in all the expensive equipment required like the front rest. $3,500 is only going to get you the rifle, you're going to have to get a good quality scope with enough resolution to see the targets, etc. Personally, I'd stay the heck away from the Bushnell 6500 even for tactical shooting, but especially for BR shooting. There are just too many guys that you'll be competing against who have been doing this for a long time, can read the wind, already have their technique, load and rifle down to an art and science. It's gonna take a long time before you're competitive in the BR crowd. Just a little idea of what they do, after their sighters, some of them can break eggs at 1,000 yards. They shoot 7" groups or less with 10 shot strings. You also have to realize that due to the nature of the way the sport is shot, you most likely will want a custom action that is very smooth, requires no blueprinting, and is a FAR cry from a Savage or Stevens action. I'm not busting on those, but I'm just saying that it's not the same game or class as 1,000 yard BR.

Most people would advise that you spend a bit, and see if you can shoot in their "11 pound" class. That would be the place where you'd be closest to being competitive and not have to invest as much. Some would recommend you buy an older used BR rifle, with maybe not as accurate of a barrel just so you can learn the sport, reading the wind, etc. Because your shooting technique and wind reading skills will be MUCH more of a limitation than the rifle. You have a LOT to learn before you'll ever be competitive with the others, even if you have the exact same equipment as they do. I hope this doesn't discourage you from taking up long range shooting, or anything like that. I'm just saying that asking to be "competitive" is asking a lot, and it most likely take years. BR is where you have some of the most expensive equipment (rifles, scopes, rests, reloading systems) of ANY of the shooting sports. So just know what you're getting into. I just want you to have realistic expectations.
Tomcat088, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#6
Tomcat088;14316 Wrote:I suspected that we were talking about 1000 yard BR competition, so I looked. We're talking about "Williamsport Club". http://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg01.html http://www.pa1000yard.com/ . So we're talking about one of the top 1K clubs in the country, and where the World Open shoot is held every year. They measure all their groups for score and size with 10 shots for all classes. This is VERY strict and accurate shooting, whereas other organizations measure for score and size with 5 shot groups with light guns and 10 shot strings on heavy guns.

In all honesty, regardless of what other people are going to tell you, you're not going to be able to compete with any other set up besides a very expensive BR rifle. You won't only have to buy an expensive rife, you'll also be in for a very expensive reloading set up, and spend meticulous amounts of time learning to load as anal as it gets. Some guys will help teach you, but most of them have their reloading room set up for their stuff, and their volume, and they aren't going to be happy or very willing to change it to let you load your stuff at their place. If they are willing to do it, they must really like you because they're giving away part of their consistency to help you. Honestly, it's not something that most people like to do, or are willing to spend so much time on. We're talking buying expensive match grade brass, and still sorting it by case volume, weight, etc. and doing the same with match grade bullets. Then you'll be annealing, fireforming, neck turning, etc. You'll be pointing or trimming meplats on match grade bullets. You'll be seating with a micrometer seater die, checking the seating depth off the ogive to ensure it's to the thousandth of an inch accuracy. You'll be checking the run out (how plumb the bullet is), to ensure they will all seat the same way in the chamber, etc.

I don't want to disappoint you with this either, but in all honesty, even with all of this, you won't be competitive for several years. Even with the best rifle and ammo, you still have to learn the techniques of shooting to the discipline, and find what works for you. This would mean free recoil, pulled down on the foreend, shouldering the rifle, etc. You'll have to decide if you're a "runner" or a "picker" with regards to how you like to use the wind. You'll also have to invest in all the expensive equipment required like the front rest. $3,500 is only going to get you the rifle, you're going to have to get a good quality scope with enough resolution to see the targets, etc. Personally, I'd stay the heck away from the Bushnell 6500 even for tactical shooting, but especially for BR shooting. There are just too many guys that you'll be competing against who have been doing this for a long time, can read the wind, already have their technique, load and rifle down to an art and science. It's gonna take a long time before you're competitive in the BR crowd. Just a little idea of what they do, after their sighters, some of them can break eggs at 1,000 yards. They shoot 7" groups or less with 10 shot strings. You also have to realize that due to the nature of the way the sport is shot, you most likely will want a custom action that is very smooth, requires no blueprinting, and is a FAR cry from a Savage or Stevens action. I'm not busting on those, but I'm just saying that it's not the same game or class as 1,000 yard BR.

Most people would advise that you spend a bit, and see if you can shoot in their "11 pound" class. That would be the place where you'd be closest to being competitive and not have to invest as much. Some would recommend you buy an older used BR rifle, with maybe not as accurate of a barrel just so you can learn the sport, reading the wind, etc. Because your shooting technique and wind reading skills will be MUCH more of a limitation than the rifle. You have a LOT to learn before you'll ever be competitive with the others, even if you have the exact same equipment as they do. I hope this doesn't discourage you from taking up long range shooting, or anything like that. I'm just saying that asking to be "competitive" is asking a lot, and it most likely take years. BR is where you have some of the most expensive equipment (rifles, scopes, rests, reloading systems) of ANY of the shooting sports. So just know what you're getting into. I just want you to have realistic expectations.

Debbie DownerSmile
Shodan, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.Anim_sniper2Zombieanimated
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#7
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this subject.

I know to be truly competitive I would need to go the custom design route.

And I also know that these people are very serious about what they do and meticulous about every detail.

I was hoping maybe I could get a foot in the door.

I shoot for the love of shooting and that may dissuade me from getting too heavy into it.

But I really wanted to hear your thoughts - especially on caliber.

Tomcat088 - As always, it is great to hear from you. It does not happen enough. I hope and pray all is well with you down south!

Shodan - Great way to express the feeling!!

Chazman - I have heard a little about .338 Lapua and do to your mentioning it I will look deeper. We just had a gun expo here in the Williamsport area and one of the guns they had for all to shoot (for a fee) was this caliber. But you could not see the rifle due to the line to shoot the Barrett .50 Cal.

Connal - A very thought out response with good information. You put a lot of energy and thought into this and I will be using your outline as a guide. Thank you.

God bless!!

PPP
Proud to be a member of pa2a.org since 11:18 PM Sept 7, 2012!
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#8
I can assure you that you don't need a 338LM to go 1,000 yards and beyond. I can also assure you that you don't "need" a custom rifle to compete at that distance.

People who always spend top dollar on everything they own must justify their purchase...otherwise, that person would look very foolish spending money on items they just do not need.

At the end of the day the shooter is more important than the equipment...granted having good equipment will aid your efforts, but the equipment won't guarantee that you will be the winner.

I personally would not recommend a 338LM type caliber unless you are serious about shooting XLR. Reloading components are expensive and it will burn through barrels much quicker. There just aren't enough ranges in PA to allow you to take advantage of the caliber. IMO, 1,000 yards isn't that big of a deal and I only know three ranges in PA that has a 1,000 yard range.

If you want a caliber that you can buy factory ammo for that has great BC...take a look at 260Remington if you are looking for a bolt action. If you are looking at a semi auto...6.5Creedmoor is king since you can load the bullets longer in the 6.5CM vs the 260...it has more to do with the limitations of the AR10 magazine then the 6.5CM being a better cartridge compared to the 260.

If you really want to just start out...you cannot beat 308 as there are so many factory loads for 308 that it will help you if you do not reload.

If you do reload, I suggest getting something better than 308. I say look at 260, 6.5CM, 243 using 115gr DTAC bullets.

As far as rifles are concerned there are plenty of choices, but my choice will always be Savage/Stevens 200. You can do almost everything yourself saying you time and money. You get the gratification of knowing you did it yourself. You can upgrade as funds become available and you will have an outstanding rifle.

BTW, I've shot my 308 past 1,000 yards along with my 338LM.
aubie515, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#9
Well, I didn't know we were talking bench rest. That is a whole new game there. But what I would do, if I had a range with that distance, I would take whatever I could. Not everyone has a chance to try that. I'm hoping to build something amusing in .223 for 800 yards. What I posted is just some of the things that I have looked into, that would work well for an all arounder.

Bench rest, that stuff is a little on the scary side lol.
This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. -Ben Franklin
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#10
There are two brackets in the 1000 yard competition here.

The heavy gun and the light gun.

Light gun is what I am interested in and it is 15 lbs and less.

So actually you were thinking about this correctly.

I don't want to shoot a block of steel with a barrel and a trigger.

I want a normal lightweight gun (according to their standards) ) for shooting those distances.

Connal and Aubie - you two were thinking correctly.

Thanks.

God bless!!

PPP
Proud to be a member of pa2a.org since 11:18 PM Sept 7, 2012!
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