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New Material Stops 9mm
#11
Arrdy;42747 Wrote:FN Five Seven .... for when you have only 1 shot.

That would be great if you could get the "good" ammo that uncle won't let civilians have access to.
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USAF (1976 -1986) NRA, GOA Anim_sniper2
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Dan Cofall
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#12
Historically speaking. While in a gun fight. Persons shot do not realize they're shot until after they're dead or the gun fight is finished. I don't think shooting an armoured target with the intent to stun is a good strategy.
"As I lay rubber down the street I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin and begin to slide, please dear God, protect my sweet ride."
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#13
billamj;42753 Wrote:
Arrdy;42747 Wrote:FN Five Seven .... for when you have only 1 shot.

That would be great if you could get the "good" ammo that uncle won't let civilians have access to.

You obviously need to watch my videos. Big Grin

Every single civilian legal version of the 28gr OTM sold to the public will defeat a 25 layer Safariland IIIA vest with ballistic stab protection. That's SS192, 195, and 198.

If you buy Elite ammunition T6, which is completely legal, you have the ability to shoot through TWO AND A HALF IIIA vests back to back to back.

Video i made of 4 types of 5.7mm vs Safariland IIIA vest:

[youtube]XW0atIAinyk[/youtube]

I also put up the SS195 test in my last post.

Based on my tests, and all the other tests ive seen on the 5.7mm forums by 2 other posters, civilian legal 5.7mm 28gr OTM ammo is a total overmatch against the best soft body armor on the market today. The 28gr OTM is .85" long and tumbles after impact, creating an AK 5.45x39mm type wound profile. The hot Elite S4M version of the 28gr OTM also fragments after impact, much like XM193 5.56mm ammo, while still penetrating 13" in gel. That round actually does MORE damage if it shoots through a vest, as the jacket fragments into dozens of 2500+ fps shards.
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#14
Valorius;42745 Wrote:Look at this video i took.

.500 S&W 350gr JHP magnum vs free hanging unsupported IIIA vest:

[youtube]1Ec632FOiQU[/youtube]

That's a .500 magnum with about 350% more energy than a 9mm.

THIS, on the other hand....

[youtube]GmxC6sFQ6mE[/youtube]

...Would probably shatter your sternum even through the vest.


Interesting but not quite realistic. Either one of them would result in damage to the individual on the receiving end. Body armor is meant to stop a projectile with mass larger than a .22 traveling at a relatively low speed, which is why they don't work, without additional protection, against rifles for the most part. They can be defeated by smaller rounds moving at higher velocities like the Five-Seven, which is why uncle really doesn't like that they are in the hands of the general public.
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USAF (1976 -1986) NRA, GOA Anim_sniper2
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Dan Cofall
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#15
US Army tests and studies have clearly demonstrated that in order for serious blunt force trauma to occur, the impact energy has to be in the vicinity of 2700 fpe. I can dig up the link if you want.

The hottest 9mm on the market generates 515fpe of energy.

And again, people who get shot even without a vest often dont even know it until after the fight is over. So shooting someone with pistol in a vest and expecting any kind of an effect is not wise.

There are videos of the owner of second chance armor getting shot by multiple AK-47 rounds at point blank range and then drawing and firing his pistol having suffered no ill effects at all.

BTW, there is at least one commercially available 9mm+P+ round that will defeat a safariland IIIA vest. I found it in my tests. Smile
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#16
Valorius;42773 Wrote:US Army tests and studies have clearly demonstrated that in order for serious blunt force trauma to occur, the impact energy has to be over 2700 fpe. I can dig up the link if you want.

The hottest 9mm on the market generates 515fpe of energy.

And again, people who get shot even without a vest often dont even know it until after the fight is over. So shooting someone with pistol in a vest and expecting any kind of an effect is not wise.

There are videos of the owner of second chance armor getting shot by multiple AK-47 rounds at point blank range and then drawing and firing his pistol having suffered no ill effects at all.

You're talking about the new type of armor, it's actually a liquid that becomes solid within milliseconds on impact. Not the type of armor that one is liable to run into on the street.

I think that the study you are talking about references soft armor with trauma plates in place. That is a completely different ball of wax. Standard soft body armor will allow injuries to take place, officers wearing it have had their hearts stopped by rounds hitting them. The trauma plate changes the dynamic.

IIRC Mythbusters did a whole show around body armor once.
[Image: member955.png]
USAF (1976 -1986) NRA, GOA Anim_sniper2
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Dan Cofall
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#17
No, im talking about regular kevlar soft/SAPI trauma plate armor.

Watch this video. The man is shot at pont blank range by an FN FAL while standing on one foot and is not knocked back or down. (skip to 2:20 if youre impatient).

The man is not winded, and says calmly, "It's less impact than a punch."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af5_13159...comments=1

The evidence is overwhelming that bullets do not create significant blunt force trauma or knockdown energy until you get way up in power levels.

A trauma plate lessens the effect even more, because it distributes the force over a larger area. But even without one pistol bullets simply lack the energy to do significant damage. Even 00 magnum 12ga buck only creates about 10mm of backface deformation. Getting hit with a 3" magnum slug is another story entirely.
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#18
Valorius;42789 Wrote:No, im talking about regular kevlar soft/SAPI trauma plate armor.

Watch this video. The man is shot at pont blank range by an FN FAL while standing on one foot and is not knocked back or down. (skip to 2:20 if youre impatient).

The man is not winded, and says calmly, "It's less impact than a punch."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af5_13159...comments=1

The evidence is overwhelming that bullets do not create significant blunt force trauma or knockdown energy until you get way up in power levels.

A trauma plate lessens the effect even more, because it distributes the force over a larger area. But even without one pistol bullets simply lack the energy to do significant damage. Even 00 magnum 12ga buck only creates about 10mm of backface deformation. Getting hit with a 3" magnum slug is another story entirely.

The professional trainers that I know might have some disagreements with this. Especially the guy who's been shot and been to the sandbox a few times.
[Image: member955.png]
USAF (1976 -1986) NRA, GOA Anim_sniper2
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Dan Cofall
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#19
3:30, point blank range with a 6" .44 magnum 240gr bullet vs soft body armor:

[youtube]wz00_TQ3PnA[/youtube]

He doesn't even flinch.

I can only post the video evidence. Short of shooting you in the chest with a 9mm+P+ while you're wearing my IIIA so you can see for yourself, there's only so much i can do to convince ya. Wink

There are tons of videos out there though, and studies, if you want to do some more research.

Handguns can cause bruising, but that's about it, and they certainly lack the power to knock a person back or down.
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#20
Valorius;42798 Wrote:3:30, point blank range with a 6" .44 magnum 240gr bullet vs soft body armor:

[youtube]wz00_TQ3PnA[/youtube]

He doesn't even flinch.

I can only post the video evidence. Short of shooting you in the chest with a 9mm+P+ while you're wearing my IIIA so you can see for yourself, there's only so much i can do to convince ya. Wink

There are tons of videos out there though, and studies, if you want to do some more research.

Handguns can cause bruising, but that's about it, and they certainly lack the power to knock a person back or down.

He shoots 3 rounds in preparation for the test. 2 into the woodblock and 1 into the phonebook/magazines.

At the 3:00 minute mark he makes a point of saying that he was putting the magazines in there to "take out some of the shock." He then shoots 1 round into the body armor.

He then shoots 3 more rounds into the woodblock. That makes 7 rounds without reloading in a .44 mag in 1988? The day before his 44th birthday. On top of that he takes the vest apart and the magazines apart and still doesn't find either of the bullets he fired into the magazines.

It's not that I distrust you, but that is not a video to stake anyone's reputation on.
[Image: member955.png]
USAF (1976 -1986) NRA, GOA Anim_sniper2
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Dan Cofall
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