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nfa newb question, re: saiga super shorty
#1
i've been seeing commercially available non-nfa rifles with short barrels at ace's and cabela's and my understanding is that they're considered pistols because they've never had a stock attached to them and weren't cut down.

my question is could someone (a company, not a random homeowner) make a non-nfa sbs saiga if they built their own reciever?
Stirpot
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#2
It would still be an NFA item (AOW) due to have a smooth bore, OAL, and barrel length.

Example:
Mossberg Cruiser is a normal Title 1 weapon in OE configuration.
Chop the barrel to say 12 or make it into a "Serbu Super Shorty" it would still be "manufacturing" an AOW.
The only thing that keeps it from being an SBS is that it never had a should stock. Which is the same thing you are asking about the Saiga.
Im guessing you are thinking of taking a Saiga parts kit and NoDak receiver and making a shotgun pistol similar to a Draco?

Now take a stocked single shot or double barrel shot shot gun, cut the barrel, cut the stock, and you have a SBS.

What manufacture/model/weapon are you seeing in this configuration on a shelf that is a non-NFA/Title 1 item?
Bear Paw Arms, LLC
Contact us for your NFA fix.
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#3
Nate7667;49333 Wrote:It would still be an NFA item (AOW) due to have a smooth bore, OAL, and barrel length.

Example:
Mossberg Cruiser is a normal Title 1 weapon in OE configuration.
Chop the barrel to say 12 or make it into a "Serbu Super Shorty" it would still be "manufacturing" an AOW.
The only thing that keeps it from being an SBS is that it never had a should stock. Which is the same thing you are asking about the Saiga.
Im guessing you are thinking of taking a Saiga parts kit and NoDak receiver and making a shotgun pistol similar to a Draco?

Now take a stocked single shot or double barrel shot shot gun, cut the barrel, cut the stock, and you have a SBS.

What manufacture/model/weapon are you seeing in this configuration on a shelf that is a non-NFA/Title 1 item?

yeah, I was referring to the draco pistol and ar style pistols that have no buttstock attached. i haven't seen one with a smooth bore, and now i know why. thank you for answering. I'll rep you when I get on my laptop since you don't seem to be able to from the mobile site.
Stirpot
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#4
Would a 12GA pistol from a rifled slug barrel be an AOW?
[Image: picsay-1358258813.jpg]
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#5
Mr_Gixxer;72277 Wrote:Would a 12GA pistol from a rifled slug barrel be an AOW?

It would depend on the ATF's opinion of the week.

While rifled shotguns normally fall under "smoothbore", in an exotic situation like a large bore handgun there is the chance that it could be construed to be a Destructive Device - especially when it looses it's sporting characteristics and being semi-automatic fed from a detachable magazine.

If it ever had a shoulder stock on the receiver it can never ever be a AOW. The only AOW's that can have shoulder stocks are combination barrel guns with a smoothbore under 18", and disguised guns like a convertible cane gun. And the only rifled AOW's allowed are the short combination rifled/smoothbore guns, disguised guns, and handguns with a vertical forward grip. I don't know if the ATF has determined whether a rifled shotgun barrel still retains it's smoothbore classification when made into a AOW(I seriously doubt it).

Your best option would be declaring it as a SBS on the manufacturing paperwork. Since it is still $200 to make a SBS, AOW, or DD - the SBS would probably be the safest route. I personally wouldn't register it as a DD because that may give the ATF some precedence to have all rifled shotguns in such exotics configuration to be classified as a DD.

Now, if the overall length is 26" or more, and barrel is 18" or more, configured like a "Mossberg Cruiser"(pistol grip only) - a rifled barrel would still be classified as Title 1 as an "other firearm".
knight0334, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#6
Mr_Gixxer;72277 Wrote:Would a 12GA pistol from a rifled slug barrel be an AOW?

Just curious, why?

Technically it would probably be considered a Destructive Device (as Knight said) because it has a bore of over .50" and would likely lose it's sporting exemption.

But it will never be an AOW, because it would need to have a smooth bore by definition.

You might be able to call it a short-barreled shotgun. People make SBS's all the time that are pistol-grip only (I have one myself) but they are usually smooth bore. I don't see why going from smooth bore to rifled would change it's "sporting" status, but you never know with the ATF.
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#7
bac0nfat;72536 Wrote:
Mr_Gixxer;72277 Wrote:Would a 12GA pistol from a rifled slug barrel be an AOW?

Just curious, why?

Technically it would probably be considered a Destructive Device (as Knight said) because it has a bore of over .50" and would likely lose it's sporting exemption.

But it will never be an AOW, because it would need to have a smooth bore by definition.

You might be able to call it a short-barreled shotgun. People make SBS's all the time that are pistol-grip only (I have one myself) but they are usually smooth bore. I don't see why going from smooth bore to rifled would change it's "sporting" status, but you never know with the ATF.

No reason other than curiosity. Just thought instead of bothering with the aow classification due to the smooth bore you could have a rifled bore like an ar pistol or whatever and be good. I am not well versed in nfa and the dd classification didn't cross my mind.

God, I can't wait for the day when we can stop worrying about these asinine restrictions and get back to being free to exercise our 2a rights.
[Image: picsay-1358258813.jpg]
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#8
panopticonisi;47841 Wrote:i've been seeing commercially available non-nfa rifles with short barrels at ace's and cabela's and my understanding is that they're considered pistols because they've never had a stock attached to them and weren't cut down.

my question is could someone (a company, not a random homeowner) make a non-nfa sbs saiga if they built their own reciever?

No.

I think this is where you are confused: AR's and AK's can be made into "pistols" if the manufacture simply never attaches a stock to them. The same can NOT be done with shotguns. It's just the way the law was written in 1934 when the fed started regulating certain firearms and classified them as "title II" (NFA).

A shotgun can never be a pistol unless it has a bore diameter of less than .50" such as the Taurus Judge, which is 410/45 long colt.

Mr_Gixxer;72537 Wrote:
bac0nfat;72536 Wrote:Just curious, why?

Technically it would probably be considered a Destructive Device (as Knight said) because it has a bore of over .50" and would likely lose it's sporting exemption.

But it will never be an AOW, because it would need to have a smooth bore by definition.

You might be able to call it a short-barreled shotgun. People make SBS's all the time that are pistol-grip only (I have one myself) but they are usually smooth bore. I don't see why going from smooth bore to rifled would change it's "sporting" status, but you never know with the ATF.

No reason other than curiosity. Just thought instead of bothering with the aow classification due to the smooth bore you could have a rifled bore like an ar pistol or whatever and be good. I am not well versed in nfa and the dd classification didn't cross my mind.

God, I can't wait for the day when we can stop worrying about these asinine restrictions and get back to being free to exercise our 2a rights.

I see. If you want a short shotgun with a pistol grip and without the NFA paperwork, it needs to have a bore diameter of less than .50". Basically a Taurus judge. Or any 410 shotgun that you built as a pistol from scratch and never had a stock attached.
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#9
So, it seems a saiga .410 pistol with a rifled bore would be the way to go?
[Image: picsay-1358258813.jpg]
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#10
Mr_Gixxer;72539 Wrote:So, it seems a saiga .410 pistol with a rifled bore would be the way to go?

Actually I'm not 100% certain. I think part of why the Taurus Judge was good to go by the ATF was because it can chamber 45 long colt. They might consider the Saiga to just be a "shotgun" and never a pistol since it can't shoot any pistol rounds, in which case it would be an SBS.

As Knight said earlier, a lot of stuff like this is really up to ATF determination. If you actually read the National Firearms Act of 1934, and all the definitions, it's actually really vague in a lot of areas.

For example, what is a combination gun with barrel lengths of less than 12" considered? Doesn't fall into any individual definition, yet has characteristics of multiple Title II firearms.
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