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PA "No Gun Signs" have force of law?
#1
Has anyone noticed that handgunlaw.us has changed the "Do 'no gun' signs have force of law" in PA to "????" from "No?" The site is reporting that some (DA/law enforcement) now say it's an automatic violation of trespass law while others maintain the original accepted practice that one must first be asked to leave before a trespass charge is warranted.

Anyone know why this is lately an issue for debate in PA, e.g., change in statute or judicial interpretation? Seems an important point on which to be clear so as not to jeopardize one's carry license.
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Gman106, proud to be the original "throbbing member" of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#2
You'd have to ask Gary. Shrug

Seems clear enough to me.


Edited to add: I think you'll find this thread very interesting, and it will probably come as close to answering your question as you're going to find anywhere.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-1...-sign.html

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“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#3
Curmudgeon;45513 Wrote:You'd have to ask Gary. Shrug

Seems clear enough to me.


Edited to add: I think you'll find this thread very interesting, and it will probably come as close to answering your question as you're going to find anywhere.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-1...-sign.html

.

Well, that certainly is a lot of crap to wade through! I do respect the advice of gunlawyer though, and it seems that one is indeed constructively trespassing when cc (albeit by subterfuge) by entering private or commercial property where a sign prohibiting such activity is posted, but that the likelihood of a DA pursuing the case is slim and even if it is prosecuted, it is a summary offense on par with a traffic ticket and would not necessarily jeopardize ones carry license. Do I have it about right?
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Gman106, proud to be the original "throbbing member" of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#4
Gman106;45522 Wrote:
Curmudgeon;45513 Wrote:You'd have to ask Gary. Shrug

Seems clear enough to me.


Edited to add: I think you'll find this thread very interesting, and it will probably come as close to answering your question as you're going to find anywhere.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-1...-sign.html

.

Well, that certainly is a lot of crap to wade through! I do respect the advice of gunlawyer though, and it seems that one is indeed constructively trespassing when cc (albeit by subterfuge) by entering private or commercial property where a sign prohibiting such activity is posted, but that the likelihood of a DA pursuing the case is slim and even if it is prosecuted, it is a summary offense on par with a traffic ticket and would not necessarily jeopardize ones carry license. Do I have it about right?


A summary offense with a possible imprisonment of up 30 or 90 days, I don't remember which.

Unless I can lie and hide it from my employer, even a relatively short jail time would mean the end of my job. After that things would really get ugly, really fast. I have a really good job. I'd like to keep it.

Even more significant... my personal commitment to the sanctity of property rights. I expect my property rights to be respected, and I therefore respect others. Can't have it both ways. This is why I find it a little hard to comprehend that there is any controversy over this. Those who cannot respect the rights of others have no business crying when their own rights are disregarded.

I was glad to see that Gary finally updated his site with regard to this, but I honestly wish he had taken a stronger stand, especially after Gunlawyer001 posted his thoughts.

Advice. That's what we pay attorneys for. Here it was being offered for free. Doesn't get much better than that.
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“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#5
Curmudgeon;45526 Wrote:
Gman106;45522 Wrote:Well, that certainly is a lot of crap to wade through! I do respect the advice of gunlawyer though, and it seems that one is indeed constructively trespassing when cc (albeit by subterfuge) by entering private or commercial property where a sign prohibiting such activity is posted, but that the likelihood of a DA pursuing the case is slim and even if it is prosecuted, it is a summary offense on par with a traffic ticket and would not necessarily jeopardize ones carry license. Do I have it about right?


A summary offense with a possible imprisonment of up 30 or 90 days, I don't remember which.

Unless I can lie and hide it from my employer, even a relatively short jail time would mean the end of my job. After that things would really get ugly, really fast. I have a really good job. I'd like to keep it.

Even more significant... my personal commitment to the sanctity of property rights. I expect my property rights to be respected, and I therefore respect others. Can't have it both ways. This is why I find it a little hard to comprehend that there is any controversy over this. Those who cannot respect the rights of others have no business crying when their own rights are disregarded.

I was glad to see that Gary finally updated his site with regard to this, but I honestly wish he had taken a stronger stand, especially after Gunlawyer001 posted his thoughts.

Advice. That's what we pay attorneys for. Here it was being offered for free. Doesn't get much better than that.
.


Yeah, it's a real bitch. While one wants to respect the sanctity of private property rights, one hates to sacrifice one's 2A rights when visiting a mall, movie theater or other large, private/commercial entity where wrong-headed gun policy pervades.
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Gman106, proud to be the original "throbbing member" of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#6
Gman106;45543 Wrote:
Curmudgeon;45526 Wrote:A summary offense with a possible imprisonment of up 30 or 90 days, I don't remember which.

Unless I can lie and hide it from my employer, even a relatively short jail time would mean the end of my job. After that things would really get ugly, really fast. I have a really good job. I'd like to keep it.

Even more significant... my personal commitment to the sanctity of property rights. I expect my property rights to be respected, and I therefore respect others. Can't have it both ways. This is why I find it a little hard to comprehend that there is any controversy over this. Those who cannot respect the rights of others have no business crying when their own rights are disregarded.

I was glad to see that Gary finally updated his site with regard to this, but I honestly wish he had taken a stronger stand, especially after Gunlawyer001 posted his thoughts.

Advice. That's what we pay attorneys for. Here it was being offered for free. Doesn't get much better than that.
.


Yeah, it's a real bitch. While one wants to respect the sanctity of private property rights, one hates to sacrifice one's 2A rights when visiting a mall, movie theater or other large, private/commercial entity where wrong-headed gun policy pervades.


When I started carrying I planned on taking the hard-nosed approach on certain things, and this is one of them. That approach was, they don't want my firearm, they won't get my business. I figured I would try it and see just how big a problem it turns out to be, how many businesses I would have to avoid. I am pleased to discover it is no problem at all. Occasionally the Mrs wants to go to Toys R Us or the mall for example, and we just find an alternative.

Easily 99% of the places we want to go are fine. And I OC. So I don't see it as a sacrifice at all. There isn't anything at the mall that I can't get somewhere else, and I find this to be true of every type of business.

The same principles that stop us from exercising our 2A rights on the private property of another also protect us. Does Goodyear Tire and Rubber see it as a sacrifice that my property rights mean that they can't plop a billboard on my front lawn despite my wrongheaded property policies?

As soon as I find it expedient to violate the rights of others for my own purposes, I open myself up to be violated. Respecting the property rights of a business isn't a bitch (to me), it's an honor. We all have these rights, or none of us do.
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“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#7
Boy.. I guess you can call me Rosa Parks then.
Soldats ! Faites votre devoir ! Droit au cœur mais épargnez le visage. Feu !
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#8
GregorOneEye;45560 Wrote:Boy.. I guess you can call me Rosa Parks then.

You could always change your user title. Big Grin
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“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
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#9
As I have stated in other places the No Gun Signs info I supply was going to be difficult to do in some states. The states that don't have a specific law on those signs is difficult and PA is not the only state that I have changed from YES to No or No to YES or even to ???.

I debated with myself for over 2 years before adding that info. I knew it was going to be difficult but I received that question many times. Researched and talked to as many people as I could before posting such things.

In PA I have one Attorney and one Sheriff telling me they do have the force of law. I have 2 Sheriffs and 2 Police Officers telling me they don't. So those in Law enforcement can't agree if they do or don't.

To settle this it will take a court case. It will take someone being arrested and charged and then a court battle. Thing is an arrest may have already happened and things were settled with a fine etc and the person charged just paid a fine. That would be easiest for most of us to do just like a speeding ticket. Pay it and move on or spend a bunch of money and not know what the outcome would be. It could be that concealed is concealed and it has never happened in PA. I don't know.

Until I can get something concrete PA will most likely stay as it is worded now.

Gary Slider
Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us
Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.
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#10
A sign I do not see nor look for will never trump the safety a firearm provides my children when they are with me.

No job or other source of money will ever trump that safety either.

I can find another job, money is far from my top priority in life, my children are and a job can be replaced, my children cannot.

Individual results may vary and I respect all opinions on this matter, even if I find them misguided.
Some people need to read this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1936976021/ref=...jwbZH1GAZF

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