pa2a.org


Share Thread:  
Police shoot pet as they notify family of son's homicide
#21
Camper;112394 Wrote:
JustinHEMI;112342 Wrote:I agree, and I have every right to defend myself against a vicious dog attack.

If you come into my fenced in yard unannounced, and my dog rushes towards you, do you have the right to shoot it?


Here's an interesting twist in all of this: There are a great many in law enforcement who do not like the "Stand Your Ground" laws, or do not believe that citizens should carry guns to protect themselves because they should simply retreat. That being said, why didn't the officers retreat to the other side of the fence?

If we're still talking about the story in the OP, I don't see where it was stated that the officers entered a fenced yard.

Quote:The unidentified officer and a detective had arrived at the home to notify family members that Ellerbe had been killed. His body was discovered shortly after 6 a.m. Wednesday, face down near an alley.

The pitbull ran from the backyard of the home toward at least one officer, who pulled his weapon and shot the dog in the home's front yard, according to Ellerbe's sister, Latoya.

"They had told me my brother was dead and I'd come out back to cry on the porch and Tiger must have heard them. He ran into the front yard and the officer shot him," LaToya Ellerbe said.

The way I'm reading it, the dog was unrestrained in the back yard, when the officers came to the door it came around the house towards them, still unrestrained. Where could they have retreated to?
Reply
#22
JustinHEMI;112433 Wrote:...if you have a dog that charges everyone that enters your property, unannounced, then you have a huge liability on your hands if there is no warning provided. You do not have the right to have a dog attack someone merely for coming on to your property.

Charging and attacking are quite different. I've seen many dogs charge myself or others, and then put on the brakes to just continue barking from 3 feet away. If I were a cop, I'd wait 'til I have actual contact (imminent biting) before I'd pull the trigger.
...
Reply
#23
RandomTask;112441 Wrote:
JustinHEMI;112433 Wrote:...if you have a dog that charges everyone that enters your property, unannounced, then you have a huge liability on your hands if there is no warning provided. You do not have the right to have a dog attack someone merely for coming on to your property.

Charging and attacking are quite different. I've seen many dogs charge myself or others, and then put on the brakes to just continue barking from 3 feet away. If I were a cop, I'd wait 'til I have actual contact (imminent biting) before I'd pull the trigger.

Or you could OC spray them from a distance. I haven't seen one video of a dog being sprayed where the dog looked like it still wanted to fight.
TheWolff, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
Reply
#24
JustinHEMI;112433 Wrote:I don't have a habit of going into people's property uninvited. I thought, incorrectly, that knowing me, you'd know what situations I was talking about.

I do Justin, but just making conversation hence the comment of "just picking" Smile

Quote:That said, if you have a dog that charges everyone that enters your property, unannounced, then you have a huge liability on your hands if there is no warning provided. You do not have the right to have a dog attack someone merely for coming on to your property.

Here's the thing, and I know we get into the weeds here, but the dog didn't attack anyone. Rushing towards someone is not attacking. I have an annoying little rat of a dog--miniature pinscher--who will bark like he's going to tear out your throat, and who WILL rush you--only to stop 5 feet away while barking. Then he'll shake and piss if you step towards him because he's all bark and NO bite or balls.

My goldens will also rush towards someone who enters the back yard...and then roll over and demand their bellies get rubbed.

Point being, is that not EVERY animal that rushes towards someone is going to do more than bark, or may even get close.

If I'm walking down the street and some angry black man is running towards me do I have the right to shoot because I'm threatened? I don't know what he would do any more than some persons dog.

Yeah, I know that's different--animals aren't people and all that--but the point is that until you know 100% what the threat is we (and the cops) should not be shooting anything.

And as has been pointed out, cops have to carry tazers and pepper spray and all that crap on their batman utility belts, the gun shouldn't be the first goto gadget when dealing with dogs.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
Reply
#25
I guess my philosophy is that if the dog is small enough to punt, a punting it shall be, if it's big enough to rip off the punting foot, a shooting it shall be.
Reply
#26
streaker69;112434 Wrote:If we're still talking about the story in the OP, I don't see where it was stated that the officers entered a fenced yard.

This is true, it may not have been fenced--we don't know.

Quote:The way I'm reading it, the dog was unrestrained in the back yard, when the officers came to the door it came around the house towards them, still unrestrained. Where could they have retreated to?

If a dog that's unrestrained and off-leash in the back yard is the type of animal to rush at people for the purpose of attacking them, one would think there would be evidence and reports of this happening at this residence in the past as neighborhoods tend to have people in them. And it's not likely that the owner unleashed the dog to go after the police in their grief, but I suppose that is possible too.

In any case, auto-kill should not be the goto response any time some object/animal/person rushes towards a person, right? I mean...when I'm out jogging I don't go popping people coming towards me in the opposite direction because they're moving towards me quickly and I have NO idea of their intent... Wink
Vampire pig man since September 2012
Reply
#27
Xpost from the last cop/dog shooting:

This is a very long, very good article about the militarization of police, and talks quite a bit about dogs. An excerpt:

Given how likely it is that police officers will often interact with animals, you would think that such training would be common. It is at the US Postal Service. A spokesman for the USPS told me that while dog bites do happen on occasion, serious dog attacks on mail carriers are almost nonexistent. Postal workers are given regular training in distracting dogs with toys, subduing them with voice commands, or, at worst, incapacitating them with Mace. Mail carriers are shown a two-hour video and then given annual instruction on topics like recognizing and reading a dog’s body language and differentiating between aggressive charging and playful bounding, and between a truly dangerous dog and a merely territorial one.

The fact that the Postal Service offers such training and most police departments don’t lends some credence to the theory that dog shootings are part of the larger problem of a battlefield mentality that lets police use lethal force in response to the slightest threat—usually with few consequences.
TheWolff, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
Reply
#28
Camper;112455 Wrote:If a dog that's unrestrained and off-leash in the back yard is the type of animal to rush at people for the purpose of attacking them, one would think there would be evidence and reports of this happening at this residence in the past as neighborhoods tend to have people in them. And it's not likely that the owner unleashed the dog to go after the police in their grief, but I suppose that is possible too.

Didn't we just read about a story not too long ago where a dog had at least 10 other incidents of biting before it was finally taken care of? We don't know this animals history either. We know what the owner said, but we don't know if it's had other cases unless someone comes forward.

Also, past performance is not indicative of future results. Wink

As far as lethal force and knowing if it's going to attack, should anyone wait until the dog clamps down before they take action? Wouldn't it be much harder to do something about the animal once it's on your arm shaking and ripping? The cops partner may even have a tough time helping out.

I'm not for cops shooting dogs, but an unknown dog charging without knowing how it's trained, or if it was just given an order in the backyard to attack, I'd say they did the right thing. It's easy to miss a dog with a taser and you cannot get a follow up shot before it would be on you. OC, unless it's a fogger, you'd still have to hit a small moving target, in the face from a distance with a tight stream.
Reply
#29
streaker69;112457 Wrote:As far as lethal force and knowing if it's going to attack, should anyone wait until the dog clamps down before they take action? Wouldn't it be much harder to do something about the animal once it's on your arm shaking and ripping?

I'm going to say...yes. Or at least, waiting until the last possible moment.

I'm not opposed to the cop pulling their gun, but I am opposed to lethal force being the first and only option.

If someone comes up to you and starts getting in your face and yelling at you, do you have the right to shoot them before they touch you?


Quote:I'm not for cops shooting dogs, but an unknown dog charging without knowing how it's trained, or if it was just given an order in the backyard to attack, I'd say they did the right thing. It's easy to miss a dog with a taser and you cannot get a follow up shot before it would be on you. OC, unless it's a fogger, you'd still have to hit a small moving target, in the face from a distance with a tight stream.

Honestly, I think the breed killed this dog regardless of whatever it was or wasn't doing. It could have been hopping like a playful kitten and it would likely have been shot simply because it's a pitbull.

And yes, there are a LOT of unknowns on both sides of this discussion. Maybe it was the last possible instance and the cop waited and reacted appropriately. Maybe the dog simply rounded the corner and the cop didn't want to take a chance.

In either case, the police will immediately call it justified and it will not be investigated further because it simply will never be. It was a pitbull after all, by God--they're the automatic assault rifles with the thing that flips up of dogs.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
Reply
#30
streaker69;112457 Wrote:
Camper;112455 Wrote:If a dog that's unrestrained and off-leash in the back yard is the type of animal to rush at people for the purpose of attacking them, one would think there would be evidence and reports of this happening at this residence in the past as neighborhoods tend to have people in them. And it's not likely that the owner unleashed the dog to go after the police in their grief, but I suppose that is possible too.

Didn't we just read about a story not too long ago where a dog had at least 10 other incidents of biting before it was finally taken care of? We don't know this animals history either. We know what the owner said, but we don't know if it's had other cases unless someone comes forward.

Also, past performance is not indicative of future results. Wink

As far as lethal force and knowing if it's going to attack, should anyone wait until the dog clamps down before they take action? Wouldn't it be much harder to do something about the animal once it's on your arm shaking and ripping? The cops partner may even have a tough time helping out.

I'm not for cops shooting dogs, but an unknown dog charging without knowing how it's trained, or if it was just given an order in the backyard to attack, I'd say they did the right thing. It's easy to miss a dog with a taser and you cannot get a follow up shot before it would be on you. OC, unless it's a fogger, you'd still have to hit a small moving target, in the face from a distance with a tight stream.

I don't think you'd have to do much aiming with the OC, as sensitive as they are to scent. If the dog is coming at you, within a short distance, I think you could get enough in the area to do the job without too much effort. I watched a few videos of dogs getting OC'd and it doesn't look like you have to be that precise. I don't know the extent of their OC training, but it seems like it would be pretty easy to simulate a dog attack in training with an RC car or something.

I also agree that action should be taken well in advance of an actual bite. If that action is non-lethal, there's no-harm/no foul if the dog wasn't going to bite, and the dog might learn something about charging strangers.
TheWolff, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
Reply






Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  An Arizona police department released video Tuesday showing a police officer using a das 11 2,527 04-16-2015, 08:30 PM
Last Post: shademtarmory
  Good shoot in WV pharmacy... Emoticon 0 653 02-23-2015, 08:06 PM
Last Post: Emoticon
  China unveils anti-terror laser cannon that can shoot drones more than a mile away wi das 3 1,163 11-05-2014, 10:44 PM
Last Post: Emptymag
  Officer Threatened: “I’m Going to Shoot Him in the Penis,” Just Before Killing Homele das 3 2,837 11-02-2014, 08:50 PM
Last Post: goofin
  'Send An Ambulance': Florida Dad Beats Up Son's Alleged Abuser das 13 1,643 07-20-2014, 02:34 PM
Last Post: spblademaker



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Software by MyBB, © 2002-2015 MyBB Group.
Template by Modogodo Design.