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Private Property Rights vs. The Right To Self Defense
Recently, a co-worker of mine was arrested, charged with 4 felonies and a pile of lesser charges, and released on bail. His situation is one involving multiple drug charges. I do want to state that I do not agree with the terms of his arrest, nor do I feel that he did anything wrong. But, being as the state sees his actions as a crime, and that he was also involved with others who were also committing crimes, for the sake of argument, I will refer to him as a criminal. People who commit drug related crimes are often involved with people who many of us would find undesirable to associate with. I'm not going to bother to further clarify my feelings on his character of that of his circle of friends. I don't trust him, or them. Period.

So now that he somehow, amazingly made it out of jail, albeit temporarily at this point, there are a few of us here at my work that feel unsafe around him. We're not really worried about him personally, but more so the people he associated with. He somehow made bail of $250,000 cash. We are sure he didn't have the money. And we know there is no one out there who footed a quarter-million dollars just to get him out of lock-up. So, the common assumption is that he is helping the authorities locate and arrest other dealers and suppliers. This, in turn, will create a very hostile response from former associates of his.

Our employer has decided to allow him to return to work. Obviously, it's his business and he can hire who he wants. But, he has introduced a person into our working environment who may bring danger to all of us. Upon voicing the concerns of myself, and others I had spoken to, to the vice-president, I was reassured that nothing will happen here. He stated that we have daylight and the deterrence of CCTV cameras all over the premises, on our side. He went as far as to say that were were perfectly safe due the fact that "no one is dumb enough to come after him here". His reassurances obviously did nothing to quell my fears, nor the concerns of others I have spoken to.

In reality, our employer has placed us in a potentially dangerous situation. If someone would come looking for him, find him here, and attempt to commit violence in retaliation for his possible involvement in snitching on others, the employees here are now between him and his assailants. Most of us arrive when it's still dark in the morning. So my boss' statement about having daylight on our side means nothing to me. As for the cameras, well desperate people do things that get caught on camera constantly. There are reality television shows based on an hour's worth of footage of "stupid criminals" doing things that were caught on tape. The cameras don't seem like much of a safety net when were dealing with desperate people attempting to quiet a former associate who may very well be leading authorities to them. Their freedom is at stake. Not only their physical freedom, but their tax-free, constant flow of illegal drug money that supports their lifestyle is at stake.

The employee handbook states that weapons of any kind, including but not limited to firearms and ammunition, are not permitted on the property. As an employee I worry that carrying my pistol during work would get me fired and jeopardize my family's well being and financial security. As a libertarian I feel the ethical pull of property rights and a philosophical need to follow the rules of the property owner, As a realist I feel threatened by the presence of someone who has made possible enemies with desperate drug dealers.

When I acquired my concealed carry license a few years back, I asked the vice-president, of the company I work for, if he had a problem with me keeping my pistol locked in my vehicle during my shift. He stated that it was no issue, and asked if I would keep it quiet as to scare any of the other employees. I feel that if I inquire about carrying my pistol, I will bring extra, unneeded attention to the situation, cause a rift between my employer and I, and possibly damage our working relationship. Our employers (father and son) are not gun guys in any way. They feel relatively safe as they go about their days. They don't have a problem with guns, but they don't quite understand the need for them in a self-defense situation. It's basically one of those ask for forgiveness, not permission situations... but the outcome could be bad either way.

My issue here is purely ethical... do my rights to self defense supersede their rights to private property? Am I in the wrong for violating their rules? Are they wrong for violating my right to defense?

Any input is greatly appreciated.
Years ago someone was fired from a place I worked at. We found out about it when a security guard was posted at the door out of the blue. Apparently threats were made as the fired employee was escorted off the property so they hired a guard. (unarmed)

Some people secretly carried for a brief period after that even though it was forbidden there as it is with most employers.

Not sure what to tell you beyond that.

Also, I'm fairly sure that of a $250,000 bail/bond/whatever, you only need to produce a small percentage of that in actual money.
Emptymag;132182 Wrote:Also, I'm fairly sure that of a $250,000 bail/bond/whatever, you only need to produce a small percentage of that in actual money.

I heard that if it's drug-related and felony status, you can't pay the 10%... maybe someone can jump in on this. Either way... if it was 10% that's not chump change.
Assuming you're not over reacting, there a lot of things in life that we can mentally jam ourselves up with, I call them grey areas. Private Property Rights vs. The Right To Self Defense is certainly one of those areas.

What I'll offer is this, make an honest & thorough assessment of the pro's and cons of both, you've already started that list in the OP, whichever has the most pros would win.

That said, you could find another job, but once you're dead it's over.
If it actually was a "cash bond"...

Quote:Cash - typically "cash-only," where the only form of bail that the Court will accept is cash. Court-ordered cash bonds require the total amount of bail to be posted in cash. The court holds this money until the case is concluded. Cash bonds are typically ordered by the Court for the following reasons: when the Court believes the defendant is a flight risk, when the Court issues a warrant for unpaid fines, and when a defendant has failed to appear for a prior hearing. Cash bonds provide a powerful incentive for defendants to appear for their hearings. If the defendant does not appear as instructed, the cash bond is forfeited and a bench warrant is issued. If the defendant shows up for their scheduled court appearances, the cash is returned to the person who posted the bond. Anyone including the defendant can post a cash bond. If the defendant posts his own bond, the Court will deduct fines and costs from the bond before returning any balance.[34]
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

William Pitt
soberbyker;132184 Wrote:Assuming you're not over reacting

I thought about this as well... I talked it out with a few people I work with and we have all come to the conclusion that the possibility of something happening, albeit small, is still a risk do to the nature of the crimes.
pinhead1979;132179 Wrote:My issue here is purely ethical... do my rights to self defense supersede their rights to private property? Am I in the wrong for violating their rules? Are they wrong for violating my right to defense?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

His private property rights trump you because you are not compelled or force to enter that property.You will have to give up your job though.
I would explain to the boss how I feel about safety in writing or email where you have a copy.
Take this trouble for me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ~ Max von Stephanitz

Private property rights trump just about anything. However you can also make choices to protect yourself that involve risk, if you feel the risk of losing your job is less than the risk of losing your life.

I'm going to guess you really aren't in much danger.....his enemies want to get him, not his coworkers. However, only you know thus guy best, and if you truly feel in danger, then you gotta do whatever you feel like you gotta do.
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Your 2nd amendment rights are certainly NOT in conflict with his private property rights. They both remain fully long as you stay off his property. It is not your right to be on his property and therefore you have no right to carry while there.

PS: I think you are probably over reacting, but if you truly feel your life is in danger you should tell your boss. If you can't carry in such a situation and they won't take measures to ensure your safety, you should resign.
Shadowline, proud to be a member of since Sep 2012.
Interesting situation and a few good points so far. Let's ask a few more questions:
Are you over reacting is one of those good points; Do you work with or very near this person? Do you feel that if someone does make an attempt to injure or kill him that you may be close enough to be included in "collateral damage"?
Are you afraid of this person or someone who may be out to get revenge on this person? (From what I gather, you're more concerned about people you don't know than the person you do know, who managed to get out of jail [presumably] without posting full bail).
Not all criminals are stupid. If someone wants revenge on this person they probably don't want to do it where there will be lots of witnesses, and the workplace is usually a good place to be surrounded by witnesses. that's probably the safest place he could be right now. I'd be more concerned about car pooling with this character, (for more reasons than one) or living near him.
Do you follow the same route to work at or near the same time? Do you park near the person in question? Do you use the same entrance/exit? Is your work station shared with this person, or very near this person's work station? Same department? Same shift?
I would suspect that there would be more danger between home and work than actually at work. Is there a good vantage point for a sniper to hide near the parking lot, or for someone to set up some other sort of ambush? Is there any security system in place other than CCTV? Are the doors locked or is the place open to the public as a course of doing business?

If something were to start to happen do you think you might be in a position to intervene? As in work near an entrance, have a good view of the rest of the office/warehouse/production area? (You haven't mentioned anything about the surroundings/ layout.

Is there signage stating "No Firearms" or something similar? Is that company policy? If so, is it spelled out in a contract or employee handbook.

Soberbyker makes an excellent point, you can get another job, but if you're dead, that's it.

Is it worth risking your job for something that may or may not happen? Only you can make that decision.

If shit hits a fan, you take action and things go wrong, the CCTV could be your worst enemy. If you save the life of the owner's favorite ass kisser you could easily be a hero with no punishment at all, and possibly help paying for your lawyer. (Dream on, but it's a nice dream). But if things don't work out that great the camera will be a witness against you.
How well do you know your boss, immediate supervisor and coworkers?
How long have you worked there? How much do you like your job?
Maybe a better perspective would be, how well do you think your boss, immediate supervisor and coworkers like you? Do you do a job that nobody else wants? Can you be easily replaced? Do you make decent money or just enough to cover your bills?
As far as being caught with a gun at work, how well do you conceal?Deep concealment or might you print or show a glimpse of grip occasionally?
If you carry and have to use it, you'll probably be glad you had it even though it may cost your job and might run you into bankruptcy paying for legal council, but at that point what's a few more bucks to have your lawyer try to help you with a defiant trespass charge?
If it were me I'd probably consider deep concealment, keep my mouth shut and stay as far away from the jailbird as possible, I mean parking place, entrance, lunch room, route to & from work, every possible way to keep your distance, especially outside of the building, would be top priority.
I'm nearing retirement age and I've seen some workplace violence. Never actually within the workplace though wit the exception of a minor shoving match with raised voices. Most often it involved vandalizing a car or waiting near the exit to ambush the target, or in one case 40+ years ago someone shot a foreman in the parking lot after work one night. That one was never solved, and it was probably nothing like the circumstances you describe. (Mickey was a very likeable guy, never in trouble with the law and got along well with everyone, or so everyone thought. But one night he didn't make it home from work, he didn't even make it to his car.
I don't know if it was a disgruntled coworker or a case of mistaken identity or maybe an affair with the wrong person, it remains a mystery although theories abound).

All that being said, you probably don't have much, if anything to worry about, from the jailbird or anyone who may want to do him harm. (Unless you work in a Post Office, and then it would be different people you'd have to worry about).

Sorry, I got kinda wordy there but my mind is going in so many directions now it's hard to stop.

Good luck.
Chuck Farley, proud to be a member of since Sep 2012.

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