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Rape is "something god intended to happen"
#51
Emoticon;29633 Wrote:Let me be clear, as I've not said this before here or the other place. I am not an atheist and I am not out to convert others to this cause, I just want to stop imposed morality on others for reasons of personal faith.

Religion has as much to do with it as someone wants to make out of it. And like I said, being non-religious doesn't immediately imply acceptance of abortion, just like being religious doesn't immediately imply denouncement of it.

Though, a persons faith (or lack thereof) can and certainly does come into play with every position they take, and every opinion they have. That's inevitable.

Using you as an example (I cropped the text below) being a scientist, answer this honestly--since you do not believe in God, if there is scientific evidence that cannot be explained via the accepted evolutionary processes or scientific method, how do you handle that or begin to reconcile it? Does the idea of a design or creator ever enter the picture, or are you immediately dismissive of it and figure that science will catch up to it?

You don't have to answer, but I ask you think about it. The point in that is to show that you *may* allow your personal religious beliefs (non belief in this case) to discount any other evidence or contrary opinions because your belief is set and it is easier for you to argue in those particular terms and more comfortable for you to frame the discussion in that way.

That's an example of people letting their religion (or non-religion) speak to the issues, and I think in the case of abortion a lot of religious people fall back to that. They think its wrong, because they believe human life--especially innocent human life--is precious, valuable, and unique. But they do not know how to formulate the argument beyond religious terms because MOST people do not sit and ponder the issue and analyze the arguments for hours and hours on end.


Quote:At the same time this idea of knowing what god thinks about someone or something is where the problems come in, because no matter how you try to phrase your thoughts on god your personal bias will ALWAYS be inserted into the way you portray him as the god we have today is the result of the world's longest round of "The telephone game". There is no way anyone can claim to know god at all unless they themselves are god the same way no matter how many books or forum posts I read on you Camper I can never truly know what you are thinking or how you would react to a given situation.

I completely understand your point, and it's a valid one. But even those who believed in Zeus, or Baal, or Osiris were able to deduce what he is thinking, what he wants, how they are to act, what they should sacrifice, etc by the information they had, and/or in the way they were revealed. Obviously I do not believe that they were *ever* real gods, and I have my own opinion on that I won't go into here. The point was that the worshipers were not floundering in how they worshiped.

Quote:If what you say is true then why do so many from the evangelical faction love to toss out the line that "There are no atheist's in foxholes" line?

Cropped again for sake of ease.

Does the existence of religion affect the beliefs of a person in a subliminal level? I don't know, maybe. Probably. Definitely. Definitely not. Absolutely. It exists, you can't make it un-exist. But as you pointed out, religion has existed so long as man has so there are two reasons for it:

1 - We're wired by evolution to seek God or a god-like being
2 - God exists and put a desire for us to find him in our hearts

As for the fox hole quote, I think that applies to the two points above, and there's truth to it--MANY people cling to or question their faith or their lack of it when faced with the possibility that their life may soon end, and that stems from what seems to be a preternatural feeling that there is more to life--and living--than the 100 or so years you *might* get to use.

Quote: Was it god's plan for the mother to fail her alcohol induced attempt at abortion and have a mentally and physically deformed baby, is god imposing that burden on the child better or worse than god imposing rape on the woman? Perhaps it was god's plan for a woman's abortion to be successful, you can't argue for one and not the other unless you are inserting personal bias of what you think god is into the argument. Again this is where trying to read the mind of god gets you into trouble, it is impossible to draw the line on what god is or wants or does or doesn't want and doesn't do without being god.

Like I said, I believe all things work according to Gods plan and purpose, but that doesn't preclude bad things happening to good people, or even those who don't deserve it. And it doesn't prevent people from making horrible decisions either, at the expense of someone else.

I think that's where the hangup is, and where the confusion is regarding the "God's plan" bit.

Lets look at Ryan White. If you existed in the 80s, you know who he is and you know that its really *his* contracting of AIDS which took the disease from a gay disease to something anyone--even children--could get. It broke down the barrier. Now, do I believe that God wanted him to get AIDS? No, I don't. But I do believe that God knew it was coming, knew it was going to happen, and used it for his plan and purpose. That boy--in death--saved more lives than you and I could ever hope to save while we live.

As for 'planning' for a woman to have an abortion? No, I do not believe that He plans--or wants--that to happen.

Quote: You have a right to your opinion. You do not have the right to tell her what she can and can't do without having had walked a mile in her shoes and experienced the circumstances that led her to make that decision.

I understand that point. I don't care what a person does with her body, and I certainly don't care what a woman (or man) does with her own. However, you have to realize that we have a society where we *do* tell people what they can and can not do with regard to others, and it is the position of those against abortion--like me--that do not approve of the practice of destroying another human life based on the unwillingness of the woman to be pregnant.

If you remove religion from the argument completely, you still have the moral argument of whether ending a human life is permissible or not, and since atheists and agnostics constantly argue that morality can exist without religion, you cannot remove the moral argument by removing region from it.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#52
Johannes_Paulsen;29583 Wrote:Maybe he shouldn't have had sex in the first place...? Sounds like he didn't choose a good woman there.

Here's a concept for you, and perhaps you haven't noticed, but women have been known to change their minds about all kinds of things AFTER the fact.
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#53
billamj;29886 Wrote:
Johannes_Paulsen;29583 Wrote:Maybe he shouldn't have had sex in the first place...? Sounds like he didn't choose a good woman there.

Here's a concept for you, and perhaps you haven't noticed, but women have been known to change their minds about all kinds of things AFTER the fact.

Yep.

Which is why I don't have a lot of sympathy for men who are shocked (shocked I say!) when they find out that the woman they unintentionally impregnated says she wants an abortion.
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#54
Camper;29825 Wrote:
Emoticon;29633 Wrote:Let me be clear, as I've not said this before here or the other place. I am not an atheist and I am not out to convert others to this cause, I just want to stop imposed morality on others for reasons of personal faith.

Religion has as much to do with it as someone wants to make out of it. And like I said, being non-religious doesn't immediately imply acceptance of abortion, just like being religious doesn't immediately imply denouncement of it.

Though, a persons faith (or lack thereof) can and certainly does come into play with every position they take, and every opinion they have. That's inevitable.

Using you as an example (I cropped the text below) being a scientist, answer this honestly--since you do not believe in God, if there is scientific evidence that cannot be explained via the accepted evolutionary processes or scientific method, how do you handle that or begin to reconcile it? Does the idea of a design or creator ever enter the picture, or are you immediately dismissive of it and figure that science will catch up to it?

You don't have to answer, but I ask you think about it. The point in that is to show that you *may* allow your personal religious beliefs (non belief in this case) to discount any other evidence or contrary opinions because your belief is set and it is easier for you to argue in those particular terms and more comfortable for you to frame the discussion in that way.

That's an example of people letting their religion (or non-religion) speak to the issues, and I think in the case of abortion a lot of religious people fall back to that. They think its wrong, because they believe human life--especially innocent human life--is precious, valuable, and unique. But they do not know how to formulate the argument beyond religious terms because MOST people do not sit and ponder the issue and analyze the arguments for hours and hours on end.

I'm not going to go into the rest of what you've said, I read it, but don't feel that adding much else would be constructive, as you've said your peace and I've said mine. With regards to the section I quoted though I've sent you a PM with the answer to your initial question as it is of a sort of personal nature.

Suffice it to say...

I think if there is a god he doesn't float around on a cloud and do malevolent things to people like a child pulling the wings off a fly or deciding who lives or dies or decides who gets the winning powerball ticket for the week like I imagine many religious people seem to believe. I not know how someone can define god with such specificity.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#55
Emoticon;32197 Wrote:
Camper;29825 Wrote:Religion has as much to do with it as someone wants to make out of it. And like I said, being non-religious doesn't immediately imply acceptance of abortion, just like being religious doesn't immediately imply denouncement of it.

Though, a persons faith (or lack thereof) can and certainly does come into play with every position they take, and every opinion they have. That's inevitable.

Using you as an example (I cropped the text below) being a scientist, answer this honestly--since you do not believe in God, if there is scientific evidence that cannot be explained via the accepted evolutionary processes or scientific method, how do you handle that or begin to reconcile it? Does the idea of a design or creator ever enter the picture, or are you immediately dismissive of it and figure that science will catch up to it?

You don't have to answer, but I ask you think about it. The point in that is to show that you *may* allow your personal religious beliefs (non belief in this case) to discount any other evidence or contrary opinions because your belief is set and it is easier for you to argue in those particular terms and more comfortable for you to frame the discussion in that way.

That's an example of people letting their religion (or non-religion) speak to the issues, and I think in the case of abortion a lot of religious people fall back to that. They think its wrong, because they believe human life--especially innocent human life--is precious, valuable, and unique. But they do not know how to formulate the argument beyond religious terms because MOST people do not sit and ponder the issue and analyze the arguments for hours and hours on end.

I'm not going to go into the rest of what you've said, I read it, but don't feel that adding much else would be constructive, as you've said your peace and I've said mine. With regards to the section I quoted though I've sent you a PM with the answer to your initial question as it is of a sort of personal nature.

Suffice it to say...

I think if there is a god he doesn't float around on a cloud and do malevolent things to people like a child pulling the wings off a fly or deciding who lives or dies or decides who gets the winning powerball ticket for the week like I imagine many religious people seem to believe. I not know how someone can define god with such specificity.

Started to read the PM, but stopped because I'm not fully awake and want to be so I can focus on it with a clear head. Thank you, will get to it later today or tomorrow--the storm has my schedule all messed over Smile
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#56
JustinHEMI;29183 Wrote:
rmagill;29182 Wrote:I think we all agree that the LSM will present this in a damaging way. However, I do think the speaker was courageous for standing up for what he believes in evene though it isn't popular. Some people value politicing over brutal honesty while others view personal beliefs as more important. In a time when people try to shirk reaponsability and morality/ethics, I am glad to see some people stand by what they believe knowing it isn't popular.

I do disagree that both statements are essentially the same. One says that God intends for people to be raped while the other says that God intended one of the results of a horrific act to be a life that is worthy of protection. To me, this is a signigicant difference and not simply a matter of significance.

I disagree. If god intended the pregnancy, then god intended the rape.

Both are insane notions by themselves, together makes it bat shit.

Justin

Seriously implying that god intended anything is nuts on the very surface.
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#57
People have this notion of a "personal god" who knows and controls everything they do and is the ultimate nanny-God.

Their God is probably a Democrat.
A gun rack in a pick-up is not for holding guns. Its a place for women to hold on to. Smile
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#58
I think its good that he is standing for his beliefs and telling us them. That way we can freely not vote for him or vote for him if it is our cup of tea.
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#59
The "rape thing" from the latest republitard.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news...e.Remarks/
A gun rack in a pick-up is not for holding guns. Its a place for women to hold on to. Smile
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