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Sale of firearm after death
#1
Does anyone have experience with purchasing a firearm from a parent of someone who died? Specifically, can a parent, who is in need of cash for funeral related expenses, sell a handgun that belonged to their deceased son, in the regular manner of just going to a FFL and doing the transfer? On paper, since there is no paperwork required for a transfer between parent and child, and since there will not be anyone coming forward to complain later, I am fairly certain there is nothing about this that violates any law. I am curious if there is anyone who knows contrary.
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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#2
More to the point, when you go to a FFL to do the transfer, do they attempt to ascertain ownership? I have never sold a firearm to an FFL, nor have I bought one from a private party and used a FFL for a transfer, so I don't know, but it would seem to me that since there is no registry, they would only need to be sure of the identity of the seller, and then do the regular PICS on the buyer, in case it ever came back as possibly stolen. Is this correct?
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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#3
Kinda sorta recall this....

Sold a firearm privately and used an FFL for the transfer. He got my ID and the buyers ID and ran the PICS check on the buyer.

If the buyer flunked the PICS then the FFL would have to run a PICS check on me before returning the firearm.

In the case you cited earlier, then the next of kin would meet you at an FFL to do the transfer. That would be as far as it went as I recall.
There is no Liberty without Law.
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#4
gold cup abuser;34880 Wrote:Kinda sorta recall this....

Sold a firearm privately and used an FFL for the transfer. He got my ID and the buyers ID and ran the PICS check on the buyer.

If the buyer flunked the PICS then the FFL would have to run a PICS check on me before returning the firearm.

In the case you cited earlier, then the next of kin would meet you at an FFL to do the transfer. That would be as far as it went as I recall.
Thanks. I was fairly sure that the FFL just checks ID on the seller and runs PICS on the buyer, in which case there would be no issue, but having never actually done a private transfer at a FFL, I wasn't sure.
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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#5
headcase;34877 Wrote:More to the point, when you go to a FFL to do the transfer, do they attempt to ascertain ownership?

There's no legal requirement for an FFL to try and determine who the "owner" of a firearm is during a transfer. Further, since there's no registration in PA, and several ways to legally be in possession of an "undocumented" handgun, there's no real way for him to do so even if he wanted to.

Further, even if the gun had actually been reported as stolen in the past, there's nothing in the PICS process that would catch that, as the serial number doesn't come into play during the transfer process. It's included on the paperwork, but that doesn't get sent in immediately, and I'd assume that even then the PSP don't take the time to cross check all the paperwork again the database of stolen firearms.
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#6
A few years ago we had a guy from work die. His wife took half of his stuff. The stuff she knew about. And his girlfriend took the other half. She sold this stuff off. She gave a local gun shop a copy of his death certificate and the people went to that shop for the transfer.
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Normanvin, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#7
There is no check that I've ever encountered to verify that the seller is the actual owner of the firearm. I've bought a few from individuals and I've sold a few, all with the services of a licensed dealer. I've seen transactions from both points of view and proof of ownership by the seller has never been an issue when doing the transfer.

I did witness a misunderstanding by a gun shop owner one time.
I was waiting my turn and the 2 guys in front of me wanted to transfer a revolver. The seller mentioned that it was his wife's revolver. When the shop owner heard that he stopped immediately and stated that he couldn't complete the paperwork if the actual owner wasn't there in person.
Since transfers between spouses and direct descendants aren't required to go through a FFL there shouldn't have been an issue in that transaction.
Needless to say, it caused an unnecessary delay, the guys both left dissatisfied. If he wouldn't have mentioned that it was his wife's gun there wouldn't have been an issue.

See the last sentence of this portion of the UFA for that info:

Quote:§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.

(a) Time and manner of delivery.--

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser or transferee thereof until 48 hours shall have elapsed from the time of the application for the purchase thereof, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded.

(2) Thirty days after publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin that the Instantaneous Criminal History Records Check System has been established in accordance with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159, 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser thereof until the provisions of this section have been satisfied, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded.

(b) Duty of seller.--No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been satisfied and until he has:

(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer. The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred. The application/record of sale shall also contain the following question:

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s), as defined under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6102 (relating to definitions), listed on this application/record of sale? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person, unless you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for any of the following individuals who are legally eligible to own a firearm:

(1) spouse;

(2) parent;

(3) child;

(4) grandparent; or

(5) grandchild.

(1.1) On the date of publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin of a notice by the Pennsylvania State Police that the instantaneous records check has been implemented, all of the following shall apply:

(i) In the event of an electronic failure under section 6111.1(b)(2) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) for purposes of a firearm which exceeds the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee.

(ii) The form of the application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer.

(iii) For purposes of conducting the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check which shall be completed within ten days of receipt of the information from the dealer, the application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee and the date of application.

(iv) No information regarding the type of firearm need be included other than an indication that the firearm exceeds the barrel lengths set forth in section 6102.

(v) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms), no information on the application/record of sale provided pursuant to this subsection shall be retained as precluded by section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) by the Pennsylvania State Police either through retention of the application/record of sale or by entering the information onto a computer, and, further, an application/record of sale received by the Pennsylvania State Police pursuant to this subsection shall be destroyed within 72 hours of the completion of the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check.

(1.2) Fees collected under paragraph (3) and section 6111.2 (relating to firearm sales surcharge) shall be transmitted to the Pennsylvania State Police within 14 days of collection.

(1.3) In addition to the criminal penalty under section 6119 (relating to violation penalty), any person who knowingly and intentionally maintains or fails to destroy any information submitted to the Pennsylvania State Police for purposes of a background check pursuant to paragraphs (1.1) and (1.4) or violates section 6111.4 shall be subject to a civil penalty of $250 per violation, entry or failure to destroy.

(1.4) Following implementation of the instantaneous records check by the Pennsylvania State Police on or before December 1, 1998, no application/record of sale shall be completed for the purchase or transfer of a firearm which exceeds the barrel lengths set forth in section 6102. A statement shall be submitted by the dealer to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, containing the number of firearms sold which exceed the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, the amount of surcharge and other fees remitted and a list of the unique approval numbers given pursuant to paragraph (4), together with a statement that the background checks have been performed on the firearms contained in the statement. The form of the statement relating to performance of background checks shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police.

(2) Inspected photoidentification of the potential purchaser or transferee, including, but not limited to, a driver's license, official Pennsylvania photoidentification card or official government photoidentification card. In the case of a potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sect or community, a seller shall accept a valid-without-photo driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's name, address, date of birth and the signature of the applicant.

(3) Requested by means of a telephone call that the Pennsylvania State Police conduct a criminal history, juvenile delinquency history and a mental health record check. The purchaser and the licensed dealer shall provide such information as is necessary to accurately identify the purchaser. The requester shall be charged a fee equivalent to the cost of providing the service but not to exceed $2 per buyer or transferee.

(4) Received a unique approval number for that inquiry from the Pennsylvania State Police and recorded the date and the number on the application/record of sale form.

(5) Issued a receipt containing the information from paragraph (4), including the unique approval number of the purchaser. This receipt shall be prima facie evidence of the purchaser's or transferee's compliance with the provisions of this section.

(6) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105, no information received via telephone following the implementation of the instantaneous background check system from a purchaser or transferee who has received a unique approval number shall be retained by the Pennsylvania State Police.

(7) For purposes of the enforcement of 18 U.S.C. § 922(d)(9), (g)(1) and (s)(1) (relating to unlawful acts), in the event the criminal history or juvenile delinquency background check indicates a conviction for a misdemeanor that the Pennsylvania State Police cannot determine is or is not related to an act of domestic violence, the Pennsylvania State Police shall issue a temporary delay of the approval of the purchase or transfer. During the temporary delay, the Pennsylvania State Police shall conduct a review or investigation of the conviction with courts, local police departments, district attorneys and other law enforcement or related institutions as necessary to determine whether or not the misdemeanor conviction involved an act of domestic violence. The Pennsylvania State Police shall conduct the review or investigation as expeditiously as possible. No firearm may be transferred by the dealer to the purchaser who is the subject of the investigation during the temporary delay. The Pennsylvania State Police shall notify the dealer of the termination of the temporary delay and either deny the sale or provide the unique approval number under paragraph (4).

© Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

For the full text of the UFA click here:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/...0.061..HTM
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#8
Legally, no worries, but there might be a problem with the estate, taxes, etc.....the gubment might think they are entitled to some money, LOL

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Patrick Henry
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#9
Markheck1;35165 Wrote:Legally, no worries, but there might be a problem with the estate, taxes, etc.....the gubment might think they are entitled to some money, LOL

This is what I was going to say since we don't know the marital situation of the "child".
If the child is a 40 something with children and a wife, there might be (and rightly so) a stink about it later.

However, at the time of transfer, unless another potential owner walks in, there will be no problem.
I'd just be damn sure they have the actual right to sell the firearm to avoid a potential visit from PSP later. Again, this is just because we don't know the entire situation.
If the child was still living at home, single, no dependents, I can't see a problem.

I am not a lawyer, just a former FFL.
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#10
Thanks guys. I am well versed on the law, I have just never been involved with a private sale conducted through a FFL, and wanted to make sure. The child was unmarried, no dependents, so there won't be anyone down the road claiming theft. I was fairly sure this was the answer, but since I wasn't 100%, as most of you know, I would not say I was. I have confirmed all of this with another friend who is an active FFL, so I am sure now.

Thanks again.
headcase, bitch-slapping gun myth perpetuators since 2006.
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