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Section 8, Welfare and Ethics a case discussion...
#31
thebearpack;86274 Wrote:So now your position is that taking a tax deduction is exactly equivalent to being on welfare?

Why is that not a logical conclusion? Nobody really pays the full price for most things. Get insurance from work? Your company takes a tax credit for it. Farmers get tax breaks for the food we eat. Mortgage Interest is deductable. Most will get more out of SS and Medicare then they paid in. And on and on. In all these cases we all collectively subsidize each other.
Dave, proudly annoying members of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#32
andrewjs18;86260 Wrote:
Camper;86230 Wrote:I believe we have a moral obligation to help the poor and disabled. WE do...not the government, and certainly not us forced by through the governments hand.

I'll have to dig for it, but I recall reading and/or listening to some history about charity in the US, and how the Catholic Church (as a prime example) used to give HUGE amounts of assistance as charity to its local cities/towns. This charity became less as people gave less, and people gave less because social security and other social programs by the government took its place. And the charity money was diverted elsewhere.

I am 100% for helping people in need. I just do not believe it is the responsibility of the government to force people how much to give and to whom, that is a personal decision for everyone to make on their own.

good post, but this is certainly not what you said on this topic a few months ago. I believe you used to say that some government welfare is ok. have you had an ideological revolution? Smile

It depends on what you label as welfare. Wink I'm not 100% anti government spending, and if the government is going to take money to assist certain people ANYWAY then I'm for limiting it and determining those qualifications, but like I said....depends on what is called 'welfare' because some label roads as a form of welfare.

Typically though...I tend to support programs that benefit ALL Americans, not just a handful.

For instance, some consider SS & Medicare welfare--I do not, because you pay into it. It's a broken, faulty system, but the *idea* is good--just not sustainable. And I think you should be allowed to opt out.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#33
SS and medicare aren't "CONSIDERED" welfare because you were forced to pay into the retirement account. Problem is, you didn't. You paid for your fathers and grandfathers retirement, not your own. It's welfare because it isn't your money you're going to get back, it is someone elses and you'll be stealing from them to get your benefit.
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#34
ExcelToExcel;86284 Wrote:SS and medicare aren't "CONSIDERED" welfare because you were forced to pay into the retirement account. Problem is, you didn't. You paid for your fathers and grandfathers retirement, not your own. It's welfare because it isn't your money you're going to get back, it is someone elses and you'll be stealing from them to get your benefit.

It would work like a mutual fund if they would let it. I put X per year in my funds, and it grows to a number 5-10 times what I put in.

The problem is they're not investing the money, they're spending it and the 'interest' is collecting money from future generations to pay for the previous.

It's not welfare because you're putting your money into the pot and getting money back based on your income, but it certainly isn't a retirement account either.

It's an abortion is what it is.
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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#35
I guess you can call it anything you want but no matter how you slice it's still the whore getting paid $ 500 per pop is outraged at the slut getting only $ 100.

[Image: moneysworthcouples.jpg]

CBS Money Watch
Dave, proudly annoying members of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#36
thebearpack;86267 Wrote:
andrewjs18;86260 Wrote:the state, through its various welfare programs, basically incentivises people to have more kids. more kids = more government assistance.

Exactly. And government is incapable of common sense. It can't look at one person and say "you're legitimately needy" and then say to the next "you're a scammer". The moochers know this and know that if they just play the game, they can make a lifestyle out of taking from others. It's even easier when they're taking it from "the government" because they don't have to look their neighbors in the eye and explain their actions.

So what's the solution? Private charities of course. But that would mean defunding/killing all social programs as well as a commensurate drop in the tax rate to allow people to keep more of their money and donate it as they see fit.

You and I both know that's not going to happen though.

I don't disagree. eventually, they're either going to make it happen or the market will force it to happen. personally, I'd rather try to fix something before it gets too late, if it can be fixed.

Dave;86282 Wrote:
thebearpack;86274 Wrote:So now your position is that taking a tax deduction is exactly equivalent to being on welfare?

Why is that not a logical conclusion? Nobody really pays the full price for most things. Get insurance from work? Your company takes a tax credit for it. Farmers get tax breaks for the food we eat. Mortgage Interest is deductable. Most will get more out of SS and Medicare then they paid in. And on and on. In all these cases we all collectively subsidize each other.

I don't know how 1 could make the argument that allowing people to get back more of their own money is a bad thing...?


Camper;86283 Wrote:
andrewjs18;86260 Wrote:good post, but this is certainly not what you said on this topic a few months ago. I believe you used to say that some government welfare is ok. have you had an ideological revolution? Smile

It depends on what you label as welfare. Wink I'm not 100% anti government spending, and if the government is going to take money to assist certain people ANYWAY then I'm for limiting it and determining those qualifications, but like I said....depends on what is called 'welfare' because some label roads as a form of welfare.

Typically though...I tend to support programs that benefit ALL Americans, not just a handful.

For instance, some consider SS & Medicare welfare--I do not, because you pay into it. It's a broken, faulty system, but the *idea* is good--just not sustainable. And I think you should be allowed to opt out.

government welfare, to me, is when they take money from my check and gives it out to another individual to support their life.

SS & Medicare is welfare. For it not to be, it would need to be voluntary and not forced.
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#37
andrewjs18;86320 Wrote:I don't know how 1 could make the argument that allowing people to get back more of their own money is a bad thing...?

Because you are NOT paying the true real cost and the difference is being paid by somebody else, or better said - by everybody else collectively.
Dave, proudly annoying members of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#38
Dave;86327 Wrote:
andrewjs18;86320 Wrote:I don't know how 1 could make the argument that allowing people to get back more of their own money is a bad thing...?

Because you are NOT paying the true real cost and the difference is being paid by somebody else, or better said - by everybody else collectively.

Probably so, but is that my problem? Did I write the laws? Did I have a choice in not partaking in their racket without having my assets frozen, guns pointed in my face and being stalked? No, I did not, therefore I'm going to try to get as much of my money back as I can.

in fact, there's nothing better than getting back money that is less valuable than when you had it taken from you.
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#39
andrewjs18;86341 Wrote:Probably so, but is that my problem?

Yep, its ALL of our problem. But then again every whore and junkie can justify their actions. Which I'm actually fine with except when the very same so arrogantly complains about others doing the very same thing. Shrug
Dave, proudly annoying members of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#40
Dave;86346 Wrote:
andrewjs18;86341 Wrote:Probably so, but is that my problem?

Yep, its ALL of our problem. But then again every whore and junkie can justify their actions.

Hey, I'm not a junkie!
Vampire pig man since September 2012
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