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Seriously, can the Republic survive?
#41
I love the comments about regular folks not being able to stand up to a modern military. You guys talk like it's never happened before. It happens all the time. It's happening now. This country was built by regular folks taking on the greatest military in the world. Yes we had help from the French but we still knocked the British around pretty good.

Even better example. Afghanistan both against the Soviets and the US. They weren't professional soldiers fighting with the latest gadgets. Hell a huge number of their weapons were built in the shed behind old Abduls hut in the Khyber Pass region. They knocked the shit out of the Soviets and they've been giving us plenty of hell.

Of course a modern "civil war" would prove difficult. It would be a nightmare for the military. Unlike the Civil War of 150 years ago, there are no front lines. It won't be state vs state. It will be the police and military vs a scattered opponent. The police wouldn't last long in most places. Partly because of officers refusing to fight against American citizens and partly because they are seriously outnumbered and outgunned. How many officers were there at the North Hollywood Shootout? Quite a few. Several dozen cops vs two bank robbers standing in the open. Cops didn't fare too well for a long time. Cops aren't generally trained to fight running gun battles. Even SWAT teams focus on quick raids after long standoffs.

Plus you have to take into account how many combat experienced veterans there are in this country who would likely join the regular folks. Any kind of violent revolution would be a huge disaster for everyone involved and I honestly think if it came to that point, other nations who aren't exactly friendly would take advantage of it and launch attacks against us. It wouldn't end like the Civil War did. We wouldn't be able to rebuild as a great nation. We would no longer be one nation. We would likely end up as several splinter third world hell holes. It wouldn't be a reset. It would be a sledge hammer to a cinder block. We wouldn't recover.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
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#42
Valorius;38370 Wrote:1st, a majority of Americans probably don't support Obama...40% of Americans didnt even vote.

2nd, Obama does not have even close to free reign. The R's can block every single thing he wants in both the House and the Senate, and there is an ostensibly R leaning SCOTUS.

1st....if 40% of Americans didn't vote, then 40% of Americans don't care...and that's sad, and just as dangerous. I actually work with two people who I'm pretty sure didn't vote. Because they didn't care. People's worlds are so SMALL today......

2nd.....You are much too optimistic, here..... but during those times when I feel like somebody sneaked a tin foil hat on me while I wasn't looking, I tend to feel like if a nobody like Obama could make his way to the White House with little to no credentials or history, and then make it to a second term, that he probably isn't very worried about the Congress or the SCOTUS.

Not that we should worry, either, I guess, since we can't do a darn thing about any of it, anyhow. But...I'm just saying.
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#43
Warpt762x39;38387 Wrote:I love the comments about regular folks not being able to stand up to a modern military. You guys talk like it's never happened before. It happens all the time. It's happening now. This country was built by regular folks taking on the greatest military in the world. Yes we had help from the French but we still knocked the British around pretty good.

Even better example. Afghanistan both against the Soviets and the US. They weren't professional soldiers fighting with the latest gadgets. Hell a huge number of their weapons were built in the shed behind old Abduls hut in the Khyber Pass region. They knocked the shit out of the Soviets and they've been giving us plenty of hell.

Of course a modern "civil war" would prove difficult. It would be a nightmare for the military. Unlike the Civil War of 150 years ago, there are no front lines. It won't be state vs state. It will be the police and military vs a scattered opponent. The police wouldn't last long in most places. Partly because of officers refusing to fight against American citizens and partly because they are seriously outnumbered and outgunned. How many officers were there at the North Hollywood Shootout? Quite a few. Several dozen cops vs two bank robbers standing in the open. Cops didn't fare too well for a long time. Cops aren't generally trained to fight running gun battles. Even SWAT teams focus on quick raids after long standoffs.

Plus you have to take into account how many combat experienced veterans there are in this country who would likely join the regular folks. Any kind of violent revolution would be a huge disaster for everyone involved and I honestly think if it came to that point, other nations who aren't exactly friendly would take advantage of it and launch attacks against us. It wouldn't end like the Civil War did. We wouldn't be able to rebuild as a great nation. We would no longer be one nation. We would likely end up as several splinter third world hell holes. It wouldn't be a reset. It would be a sledge hammer to a cinder block. We wouldn't recover.

Valid points, but with respect to Afghanistan, we supplied untold numbers of weapons and hardware during their fight against the USSR, and Russia via Iran and other surrogates have done a good job returning the favor to us.
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Gman106, proud to be the original "throbbing member" of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#44
Here we already have millions of guns. Not to mention there would likely be support from countries that want to see America destroy itself. Plenty of arms would be smuggled in from South America through Mexico. Hell I bet even Mexico would supply weapons to those fighting against the government.

Russias been taunting the US recently and Putin isn't exactly pro American. However, he is well stocked with tens of millions of brand new in the crate AKs of all varieties just sitting in warehouses. Wouldn't be much for him to smuggle them in along with millions of rounds of surplus ammo in all calibers.

China is another possible player. They could probably do the most damage. Call in debts during the crisis while simultaneously supplying the other side with weapons. North Korea and Iran are two more potential suppliers. Iran would want the US busy with that kind of problem if they attack Israel.

So basically, Afghanistan is a small example of what could happen here. A lot of countries would be giddy at the chance to help destroy this country. They have the supply of weapons and ammo to do it too.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
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#45
Gman106;38376 Wrote:The takers have figured-out that they simply sit on their ass and vote for their welfare state and the left is all too happy to give it to them. It's a symbiotic relationship and since there are now more of them then there are of us, the future looks quite blight to me.

It's only symbiosis as long as they are useful to this administration. It's parasitism on the rest of us. These parasites may very well kill the host.

This is a ruinous path, but we're there now. Not really sure what to do about it, but natural selection might do the job when the resources run dry.
I don't suffer from insanity.
I enjoy every minute of it.
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#46
RugerGirl;38389 Wrote:
Valorius;38370 Wrote:1st, a majority of Americans probably don't support Obama...40% of Americans didnt even vote.

2nd, Obama does not have even close to free reign. The R's can block every single thing he wants in both the House and the Senate, and there is an ostensibly R leaning SCOTUS.

1st....if 40% of Americans didn't vote, then 40% of Americans don't care...and that's sad, and just as dangerous. I actually work with two people who I'm pretty sure didn't vote. Because they didn't care. People's worlds are so SMALL today......

2nd.....You are much too optimistic, here..... but during those times when I feel like somebody sneaked a tin foil hat on me while I wasn't looking, I tend to feel like if a nobody like Obama could make his way to the White House with little to no credentials or history, and then make it to a second term, that he probably isn't very worried about the Congress or the SCOTUS.

Not that we should worry, either, I guess, since we can't do a darn thing about any of it, anyhow. But...I'm just saying.

that's just simply not the case. I voted, and while I didn't vote for anyone (I left my write-in slips blank), I just don't care for the people that was being offered by any of the parties.

put someone up that the people like and they'll vote. until then, they'll stay home...it's as simple as that.
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#47
Warpt762x39;38419 Wrote:Here we already have millions of guns.

Unlike Pennsylvania, there are States out there that have Militia's that are darn near as well equipped as our own military. These units alone would be a force to reckon with.

And for everyone of "us" that are out there with more than one firearm, we would be able to arm a small army on our own. I've went to a lot of various "Group Shoots" and the firepower that shows up at these events are just amazing.

And what about those that are discreet in what they have. There are people out there that could probably arm an army all by themselves.

If push ever came to shove. If you could get the people to stand up, there are some major firearms out there in average citizens hands that could make any army have to stand back and take a second look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBr77uVScMg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txVez6mATCc
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In the beginning a Patriot is a scarce man, Hated, Feared and Scorned; but in time, when his cause succeeds, the timid join them, because then it cost nothing to be a Patriot.... Mark Twain.
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#48
Your best bet if you want to fight the US military is to stay as far as fucking possible away from any sort of an organized militia or fighting unit, and operate on your own.
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#49
Questions:
-How do you plan on defeating armored vehicles? An up-armored humvee will take on a LOT of small arms fire and still operate just fine. The gunner's turret is also well armored.
-How do you plan on defeating night vision capabilities? Seriously, we own the night pretty well.
-How do you plan on defeating air capabilities? Even without dropping munitions, the ability to use helos to track movement and relay information of what's going on is pretty damn amazing.

Now I'm not saying the military is invincible, but it's one hell of a force to be reckoned with and not something to take lightly. Your best bet is to never take them head on; you will lose.

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Another thing that you're going to have to worry about is the President using the Insurrection Act, which would authorize US troops to be used "to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it— ‘‘(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or ‘‘(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws. In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.’’"

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Now all that aside, how willing do you think American forces will be to turn their weapons against the citizens they swore to defend? The text of the oath is:

"I, [name], do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

There's going to be a huge divide within the armed forces if the order is given to march on US soil with live weapons. It's not guaranteed that those who do march will follow the order to fire if it's ever given.

Should you be worried? I'm always worried about it. However, I have serious doubts that we'll ever be given that order.

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#50
ShaulWolf;38457 Wrote:Questions:
-How do you plan on defeating armored vehicles? An up-armored humvee will take on a LOT of small arms fire and still operate just fine. The gunner's turret is also well armored.
-How do you plan on defeating night vision capabilities? Seriously, we own the night pretty well.
-How do you plan on defeating air capabilities? Even without dropping munitions, the ability to use helos to track movement and relay information of what's going on is pretty damn amazing.

Now I'm not saying the military is invincible, but it's one hell of a force to be reckoned with and not something to take lightly. Your best bet is to never take them head on; you will lose.

-------------------------------------

Another thing that you're going to have to worry about is the President using the Insurrection Act, which would authorize US troops to be used "to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it— ‘‘(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or ‘‘(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws. In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.’’"

-------------------------------------

Now all that aside, how willing do you think American forces will be to turn their weapons against the citizens they swore to defend? The text of the oath is:

"I, [name], do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

There's going to be a huge divide within the armed forces if the order is given to march on US soil with live weapons. It's not guaranteed that those who do march will follow the order to fire if it's ever given.

Should you be worried? I'm always worried about it. However, I have serious doubts that we'll ever be given that order.

So, if it did come to that..how many military members do you think would side with rebel fighters, and how many do you think would just choose to ignore orders, especially orders coming from a president that reportedly a large portion of the military does not care for?

As far as militias go, I often wonder why PA does not have one (in the same way I wonder how all counties but one could go to Obama), but if there was any type of indication that an insurrection were in the works, the militias would be the very first thing that was targeted by the feds or military.
glocke12, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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