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Special Report: Philadelphia police's firepower
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pistol 
Quote:Special Report: Philadelphia police's firepower

PHILADELPHIA - April 28, 2013 (WPVI) -- Philadelphia police officers are getting the option to choose more powerful weapons in order to keep up with the firepower some criminals are using.

Action News sat down with Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey to talk about the policy that's impacting every new recruit in this department and hundreds of other officers.

The standard for years has been a department issued 9mm handgun, but to combat what's happening on the streets, police officers are getting higher caliber weapons.

Commissioner Ramsey pointed out just last week a drug raid recovered 10 guns, one was an AK-47.

"We give officers an opportunity to go on the range, test fire, and you know what's best for you; right now, the 9mm is the one most officers carry, but more and more are now to going to the .40, .45 caliber. I switched to the .45 caliber myself. It's a heavier weapon; I think more accurate," Ramsey said.

The commissioner believes this change in policy will make a difference on the streets, but that of course depends on who you ask.

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Not to start the whole 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 argument, but I think everybody can agree that it all comes down to shot placement. On top of that, you need good ammo. PPD also uses the 8# trigger on their Glock pistols. Personally, if I ever did law enforcement I'd want a 9mm with 115 grain +p+ or 124 grain +p ammo and I'd want my trigger to be no heavier than 5-6 lbs on a striker fired pistols (SA/DA is another discussion). I'm most accurate with a 9mm. I heard PPD issues 147 grain HSTs for their Glock 17s. I've seen a lot of Philly cops shoot and I think accuracy should be their number 1 concern; NOT handgun calibers.
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#2
Philadelphia Patriot;99180 Wrote:...I think everybody can agree that it all comes down to shot placement...

Sorry can't resist



Philadelphia Patriot;99180 Wrote:Not to start the whole 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 argument, but I think everybody can agree that it all comes down to shot placement. On top of that, you need good ammo. PPD also uses the 8# trigger on their Glock pistols. Personally, if I ever did law enforcement I'd want a 9mm with 115 grain +p+ or 124 grain +p ammo and I'd want my trigger to be no heavier than 5-6 lbs on a striker fired pistols (SA/DA is another discussion). I'm most accurate with a 9mm. I heard PPD issues 147 grain HSTs for their Glock 17s. I've seen a lot of Philly cops shoot and I think accuracy should be their number 1 concern; NOT handgun calibers.

I think many (if not all) of these statements could apply to just about any PD out there. Every now and again I run into an officer who is also a firearms enthusiast, these are the guys that really seem to be able to shoot well. Others don't seem to practice outside of whatever bare minimum requirements exist.

I just don't follow that logic of the heavy trigger. If people (cops included) practice proper trigger discipline, weight shouldn't really be a factor. Then again, I've never been in a situation to put that to the test so it's safe to say I don't know what I'm talking about.
The law? The law is a human institution...
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#3
csmith;99187 Wrote:
Philadelphia Patriot;99180 Wrote:...I think everybody can agree that it all comes down to shot placement...

Sorry can't resist



Philadelphia Patriot;99180 Wrote:Not to start the whole 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 argument, but I think everybody can agree that it all comes down to shot placement. On top of that, you need good ammo. PPD also uses the 8# trigger on their Glock pistols. Personally, if I ever did law enforcement I'd want a 9mm with 115 grain +p+ or 124 grain +p ammo and I'd want my trigger to be no heavier than 5-6 lbs on a striker fired pistols (SA/DA is another discussion). I'm most accurate with a 9mm. I heard PPD issues 147 grain HSTs for their Glock 17s. I've seen a lot of Philly cops shoot and I think accuracy should be their number 1 concern; NOT handgun calibers.

I think many (if not all) of these statements could apply to just about any PD out there. Every now and again I run into an officer who is also a firearms enthusiast, these are the guys that really seem to be able to shoot well. Others don't seem to practice outside of whatever bare minimum requirements exist.

I just don't follow that logic of the heavy trigger. If people (cops included) practice proper trigger discipline, weight shouldn't really be a factor. Then again, I've never been in a situation to put that to the test so it's safe to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

I like Colion Noir a lot. He's down to Earth, but can also be pretty funny. I have the 3.5 lbs connector in my Glock 19 and I am pretty accurate with it. I do think it makes a difference over the factory part, but to each their own. Most Philly cops aren't gun nuts so I don't know why they would issue them a snappy .40. The G21 also has an awkward grip for those who don't shoot them enough so I don't think it's a good choice for other non-gun nuts either. I think a Gen 4 G17 would be perfect for them, but they should ditch the 147 grains for 124+p or 115 +p+. Also if they all issue the same weapon, then they can share mags in the event of a shoot out.
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#4
I'd ask the NYPD victims from the Empire State building shooting how well those 8 pound triggers work.

Then I would say, "if you wanted officers to score critical hits on target while minimizing collateral damage due to missed shots, arm them with an AR-15 with a holographic site." But it is Philly, so no pistol grips so the officers don't spray fire from the hip. No heat seeking ammo, either.
tolerance for failure meter... LOW
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#5
Ramsey thinks that a .45 is "more accurate" than a 9mm?

I could follow the logic that arming cops with .45s is a good idea (from Ramsey's point of view) because cops lack in accuracy, so the higher collateral damage, caused by the larger caliber, makes up for their lack in training and skills. But I doubt that the caliber by itself leads to better accuracy.
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#6
MostlyHarmless;99212 Wrote:Ramsey thinks that a .45 is "more accurate" than a 9mm?

I could follow the logic that arming cops with .45s is a good idea (from Ramsey's point of view) because cops lack in accuracy, so the higher collateral damage, caused by the larger caliber, makes up for their lack in training and skills. But I doubt that the caliber by itself leads to better accuracy.

LOL @ the logic that caliber type determines accuracy. Cartridge type has a tiny role to play WITHIN a caliber type, but that's about it.

Hitting your target is more important than sending off more lead to whiz through empty space and hit nothing.

If PPD wants to upgrade to .45, fine. But a change in caliber means a completely different gun. And when you change calibers for MOST people, nearly all, it's like starting over from scratch with accuracy. Speed tests, etc.


PPD can't afford to change out everyone's service piece and put a .223 or .308 rifle in the hands of every cop. If they had that kind of money, then we definitely have the money to hire 300+ more officers instead of handing the force rifles a majority of the LEO population doesn't know how to properly use in a firefight.


I don't think upgrading from 9mm is gonna make me any safer over here in Kensington. Criminals don't exactly go through cases of ammo target practicing. They wave around guns to intimidate others into submission 90% of the time, and the ones who do pull the trigger are the lousiest shots in the world. So... if you can hit the fly off a horse's ass at 20 yards, you dear sir, are way more lethal with a 9mm than the punk with a .45 who can't hit the broad side of a barn.
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#7
ArcticSplash;99213 Wrote:Hitting your target is more important than sending off more lead to whiz through empty space and hit nothing.

Exactly. And how often do cops actually hit their (intended) target compared to missing?

We've all seen reports with up to 100 shots fired by all the cops combined and the total score was maybe 2 or 3 hits. And the relatively low number of 100 shots is not because they all ran out of ammo, but because somebody had the nerve to yell "seize fire" or something to that extent. In those situations, wouldn't you want those 2-3 hits be as effective as possible?

The matter of the fact is that nobody brags about running someone over with a Ford Focus. Doing the same with a Ram 2500 Supa-Duty is more like it. Likewise telling the press that they "kicked the bad guy's a** with fohdyfives" just sounds better.

They won't score more hits. It just sounds better when they brag about it.
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#8
I couldn't help but chuckle when I heard this on KYW this morning.

"You mean they are admitting that they need to be able to have the same kind of firepower that criminals have? Isn't that the same argument we've been making for DECADES?"

But what the fuck do we know, we're just the muggles.
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#9
MostlyHarmless;99216 Wrote:
ArcticSplash;99213 Wrote:Hitting your target is more important than sending off more lead to whiz through empty space and hit nothing.

Exactly. And how often do cops actually hit their (intended) target compared to missing?

We've all seen reports with up to 100 shots fired by all the cops combined and the total score was maybe 2 or 3 hits. And the relatively low number of 100 shots is not because they all ran out of ammo, but because somebody had the nerve to yell "seize fire" or something to that extent. In those situations, wouldn't you want those 2-3 hits be as effective as possible?

The matter of the fact is that nobody brags about running someone over with a Ford Focus. Doing the same with a Ram 2500 Supa-Duty is more like it. Likewise telling the press that they "kicked the bad guy's a** with fohdyfives" just sounds better.

They won't score more hits. It just sounds better when they brag about it.

they fired over 200 rounds at the boom boom brothers in Boston and didn't kill them as #1 they said was killed by his brother running over him while escaping....although by the pics he wouldn't have lived long anyway

i heard somewhere on average a cop under stress only hits the intended target 1 out of 7 shots ..... seeing what they did with that guy in ny and hitting 9 innocents seems about right
It's the "BILL OF RIGHTS" not the bill of "needs"
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