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The Amnesty Surprise
#11
I don't understand the fight for "civil rights" (voting, citizenship, welfare) of illegal immigrants in this country. My family also came here dirt poor and worked their way to the top, but now it seems the best way to make it into America is to come here illegally and make (vote) yourself money and legal status. Sad, really
Lkttomasz, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Apr 2013.
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#12
LostCyborg;115617 Wrote:I'm not a fan of amnesty mainly for one reason. We have an illegal immigration problem and granting amnesty does nothing to address the problem. I have no problem with people who come here illegally. If you've seen how these people live in their home countries you wouldn't either. I have a problem with the fact that it's illegal yet our government does little about it and goes as far as to grant illegals welfare benefits that I pay for with my tax money.

The point of the article is somewhat lost on me though. Yeah if you grant people citizenship they now have 2nd Amendment rights. Duh. So what? Does someone think they're suddenly going to vote Republican because of that? They're going to join the NRA in droves? Hmmmm.... maybe, but I doubt it. Most illegals just want to work and not live in a shack with a dirt floor, and if the .Gov's gonna hand out some free cheese while they're at it then this truly is the promised land. Livin' the American dream one welfare check at a time. Yeee haaa. Unlike a large portion of citizens that receive welfare of some type and literally live to milk the system, I think most illegals are like "Holy crap! We broke the law to come here, and now they're giving us free shit! Icing on the cake!"

Everyone does have the right to self defense. You should be allowed to strap a katana to your back if that's what suits you. Illegal alien or not. I believe self defense is a natural right and that is one of the reasons it was put into The Bill of Rights. I understand the argument around criminality forfeiting your rights, but then why are you still entitled to some rights like free speech, due process of law, etc... That's just my 2cents that's worth just about that much.

I've been to one of the poorest countries on the planet, Cambodia and seen people actually starving. I've seen a kid completely emaciated laying on the shoulder of a street city nearly unable to move. I've also been to Mexico several times (and not just the border towns). They are not even remotely comparable in terms of poverty, people in mexico don't generally live in grass and stick huts anymore, at least the poorest in Mexico have moved up to corrugated metal shacks. I told a story a while back on the other site of personally watching someone almost get trampled and stripped in the matter of seconds by a mob for trying to give American dollars to starving kids in Cambodia. Why should Mexican people get preferential treatment over those people for example? Apart from that if there is a reasonable belief that you government is trying to kill you for your ethnicity or religion, there is already an established process for becoming a refugee to most of the developed first world countries including the United States and becoming a legal citizen.

Put aside the cartel members who might be legitimized by this Amnesty bill, do you also really want these La Raza activists for example who are constantly talking about violently reclaiming a good chunk of the southwest for Mexico to make it easier for them have the means to commit such violence if they will not claim allegiance to the US? Not that they could ever do it, but I would rather want to have people in the US owning firearms that will fight to defend it and actually want to be US citizens rather than making people citizens whose real allegiance openly lies with a foreign government that wishes to subvert the government in this nation. If we had been enforcing our existing laws and booting these clowns out as we caught them like we used to this would not be the issue it is today. If a Mexican person wants to petition for citizenship to the US through legal channels and values the ideals this country is founded upon and goes through the process like everyone else I have zero problem with them owning a firearm.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#13
I shouldn't be shocked by this anymore. I shouldn't really wonder why I continually find contradictory statements and beliefs on a gun board. What gets me is the same people who will say making a law that prohibits 30 rounds mags is stupid because people already have them think that a law prohibiting somebody who came to this country illegally from obtaining a firearm makes sense because they are "invaders".

Except for your hardcore racist which I'm sure there are few around here, I don't see why anybody has a problem with somebody clawing their way out of a country trying to kill or enslave them at every turn. I don't think the real problem is the person seeking refuge. I think the problem is a perceived notion that these "Illegals" mooch off a system that provides aid to those who feel no shame in getting a hand out.

I'm not going to get into the rhetoric about who abuses the system and for what cause. I just think its disgusting that because you won some soul lottery that bore you into a country as plentiful as ours, that you somehow find a way to regard your fellow Homo Sapiens as less than and not afforded the same rights.

Don't get me wrong, I deplore anyone seeking a handout but I am more upset with those who would steal my money in the form of a tax and hand it out. Spend sometime in any downtown city and I think you'll see its not often the immigrants that bend a knee with cupped palms to survive.
JDP, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Apr 2013.
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#14
" Self defense with a firearm and self defense in general are separate issues with regards to non-citizens and people who have no business being a citizen without following the established process for doing so."

Self defense with one tool is the same as self defense with another tool. This isn't a gun issue, it's a human rights issue. The only difference is in your own mind.

People in this country, like yourself, think the Bill Of Rights only applies to Americans, and that idea wavers between being hilarious and disgusting. "All men are created equal" doesn't translate to "All Americans are created equal," no matter what you'd like to believe. Illegal immigrants are still human beings, and have the same right to self defense as anyone else. Believing otherwise only means that you've effectively dehumanized them simply based on their citizenship status. People who dehumanize other people based on such an abstract concept like that probably have other issues.

Where does it end? Non-citizens can't defend themselves. What other rights would you like to deny them? Freedom of religious expression? Freedom of speech? Freedom to breathe air?

What about citizens? What rights do you think should be conditional? Voting? Public gatherings? Yeah, you love liberty, but only for special people.
Unbanned since September 2012.
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#15
JDP;115631 Wrote:I shouldn't be shocked by this anymore. I shouldn't really wonder why I continually find contradictory statements and beliefs on a gun board. What gets me is the same people who will say making a law that prohibits 30 rounds mags is stupid because people already have them think that a law prohibiting somebody who came to this country illegally from obtaining a firearm makes sense because they are "invaders".

Except for your hardcore racist which I'm sure there are few around here, I don't see why anybody has a problem with somebody clawing their way out of a country trying to kill or enslave them at every turn. I don't think the real problem is the person seeking refuge. I think the problem is a perceived notion that these "Illegals" mooch off a system that provides aid to those who feel no shame in getting a hand out.

I'm not going to get into the rhetoric about who abuses the system and for what cause. I just think its disgusting that because you won some soul lottery that bore you into a country as plentiful as ours, that you somehow find a way to regard your fellow Homo Sapiens as less than and not afforded the same rights.

Don't get me wrong, I deplore anyone seeking a handout but I am more upset with those who would steal my money in the form of a tax and hand it out. Spend sometime in any downtown city and I think you'll see its not often the immigrants that bend a knee with cupped palms to survive.

Please, I invite you point out where I've said anything contradictory and I will enlighten you as to where you are mistaken. I also invite you to go through the process of sponsoring a legal immigrant to this country and watch them get shit on every step of the way because they did it the correct way. It's kind of like paying for a movie ticket, and when you go to the theater to sit down all the seats have been taken because some piece of shit held open the emergency exit and let a bunch of punk kids fill the place for free. That is how our immigration system currently "works" in this country.

You got a student visa to go to school in America? Fuck you, you have to pay the international rate which is normally 3x the normal rate, while illegals are getting in state tuition, because of bleeding hearts like you who feel bad for them, but not bad enough to pay for their schooling yourself instead of reaching into someone else's pocket to do it.

Just got done paying over $1000 bucks in green card filing fees? Fuck you, we're going to let the Dream Act people do the same thing for $465 out the door.

You want to get a driver's license while holding a green card? An illegal in some states can get a driver's license that lasts several years. Oh, but you said you have a green card? In that case.... Fuck you, you need to renew and pay a fee every year.

You just sponsored your pregnant wife that you've built a life with and you die in a car accident as her sponsor? Fuck her, USCIS will show up and deport her ass out of your house while letting the illegal house keeper stay.

I can go on and on...

Please get a clue about how the LEGAL immigration system "works" like I have having seen the process in action and then we'll see how happy you are about letting all this shit happen on a daily basis. Still though from the position you're arguing from it just seems like its easier to scream "RACIST!!!" like the good people on TV tell you say and think to rather than actually see how hard legal immigrants get fucked in this country and are eligible for next to nothing while PAYING TAXES!!! All the while illegals get the country served up to them on a silver platter by comparison on a daily basis and pay nothing.

Also how many of those illegal day laborers that are so ubiquitous do you think carry health insurance or do you think that they just get dumped off at the ER and pay nothing while getting top notch care? Think that might have something to do with hospitals having to close their doors in some areas....hmmm....
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#16
jahwarrior72;115633 Wrote:" Self defense with a firearm and self defense in general are separate issues with regards to non-citizens and people who have no business being a citizen without following the established process for doing so."

Self defense with one tool is the same as self defense with another tool. This isn't a gun issue, it's a human rights issue. The only difference is in your own mind.

People in this country, like yourself, think the Bill Of Rights only applies to Americans, and that idea wavers between being hilarious and disgusting. "All men are created equal" doesn't translate to "All Americans are created equal," no matter what you'd like to believe. Illegal immigrants are still human beings, and have the same right to self defense as anyone else. Believing otherwise only means that you've effectively dehumanized them simply based on their citizenship status. People who dehumanize other people based on such an abstract concept like that probably have other issues.

Where does it end? Non-citizens can't defend themselves. What other rights would you like to deny them? Freedom of religious expression? Freedom of speech? Freedom to breathe air?

What about citizens? What rights do you think should be conditional? Voting? Public gatherings? Yeah, you love liberty, but only for special people.

Says the person who seems to think that some immigrants are entitled to skip the line because they are....lets just say... a little "more equal" than others? Rights of illegal aliens should be non-issue because they shouldn't be here in the first place and if we were enforcing the laws we already have their numbers would be much smaller. Have I ever said anything about restricting rights for citizens? No... Let me turn your question around on itself like you have tried with me though. Should illegal aliens be allowed to vote so they can vote themselves more welfare programs with your money? No? I thought you were the big crusader for these people having all these rights they are not entitled to!
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#17
Voting isn't a human right. Durr.

I'd like you to point out where I said some are entitled to special privileges; maybe you were looking at your own posts. I never said anyone should skip ahead of your imaginary line. And you haven't answered a single question posed to you, either, I noticed. Are they that difficult? Here, I'll ask again: themselves. What other rights would you like to deny them? Freedom of religious expression? Freedom of speech? Freedom to breathe air?

What about citizens? What rights do you think should be conditional? Voting? Public gatherings? Which people are more deserving of civil/human rights? Would you like to see Jim Crow laws return? Probably.
Unbanned since September 2012.
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#18
jahwarrior72;115640 Wrote:Voting isn't a human right. Durr.

I'd like you to point out where I said some are entitled to special privileges; maybe you were looking at your own posts. I never said anyone should skip ahead of your imaginary line. And you haven't answered a single question posed to you, either, I noticed. Are they that difficult? Here, I'll ask again: themselves. What other rights would you like to deny them? Freedom of religious expression? Freedom of speech? Freedom to breathe air?

What about citizens? What rights do you think should be conditional? Voting? Public gatherings? Which people are more deserving of civil/human rights? Would you like to see Jim Crow laws return? Probably.

You don't have any rights if you knowingly and willingly enter someones property who does not want you there. The United States belong to the people, and we the people have chosen to make some laws regarding who is allowed in and how long they can stay. That is OUR right. We fought and died to have this sovereign nation, and earned the right to control who we let in. It's really no different than a burglar who breaks into your house.
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#19
jahwarrior72;115640 Wrote:Voting isn't a human right. Durr.

I'd like you to point out where I said some are entitled to special privileges; maybe you were looking at your own posts. I never said anyone should skip ahead of your imaginary line. And you haven't answered a single question posed to you, either, I noticed. Are they that difficult? Here, I'll ask again: themselves. What other rights would you like to deny them? Freedom of religious expression? Freedom of speech? Freedom to breathe air?

What about citizens? What rights do you think should be conditional? Voting? Public gatherings? Which people are more deserving of civil/human rights? Would you like to see Jim Crow laws return? Probably.

Oh I see, so while the issue all along this discussion is constitutional rights, you have apparently chosen to pick and choose whatever you personally define as human rights coupled with whatever whim strikes you to suit your argument. Between our previous sparing with regards to immigration, what I know about your background from what you've told us about yourself, and your general willingness to attack anyone who opposes you with regards to the amnesty issue you've made it no secret that you support amnesty for illegal aliens in some form of fashion. Thus you support giving people the special privilege of circumventing the established protocol for becoming a citizen in this country which is inherently a special privilege not afforded to most people coming from other countries.

You do have a right to defend yourself if someone attacks you to stop a crime against your person, but not with a firearm in the US if you are a non-citizen. You should be afforded no constitutional rights at all if you are here in this country illegally beyond a right to a one way ticket home. As far as I am aware ANYONE from ANY country who is not an international war criminal or terrorist can potentially become an American citizen and thereby become entitled to all of the rights and liberties granted by citizenship or permanent residency. This is a very simple concept, If you wish to reside in the United States with all the rights of a citizen you are more than welcome to petition for citizenship, otherwise fuck off and go home. Nobody is being denied their constitutional rights if they can choose to petition to become a citizen at any time that strikes their fancy BEFORE they enter this country.

Put it another way analogous to this situation...

If I intend to commit a crime, say trespass at a nuclear power plant. When I'm on the grounds of the power plant, I've already committed the crime. When the police and or security arrive to put a bullet in between my eyes, I have no right to self defense or anything else for that matter as I am the criminal and I knew I wasn't supposed to be there to begin with. By intending to commit the crime I am pretty much implicitly saying that I am willing to accept the consequences that go with it. There are thousands of people a year who come to the United States from the 3rd world who go through the process legitimately like they are supposed to. Why is this so difficult for people from Mexico versus people from other 3rd world countries to work out? There is nothing stopping people from immigrating to this country in the same fashion my family did. People like you on the other hand who are bleeding hearts that do not understand the concept of personal responsibility believe that criminals who violate our laws are entitled to use our country as their own personal ATM machine and get all the medical care they want for free, and then complain about how racist we all are when anyone baulks at the idea of what is happening. That old if you disagree with people stealing from you is racist concept is so played out it's not even funny.

Boo-fucking-hoo! So Mexico is a shit-hole, so most of the world, deal with it. It's not our job to take care of every sick puppy or kitten that lands on our doorstep. Maybe if Mexico focused more on developing their own economy rather than leeching off ours and did something about their rampant corruption it might not be such a shit-hole. As it stands now the US will help you no matter what country you are from, all we ask is that you not be a felon and abide by our laws and expect you to follow the established process to becoming a citizen. Why is that so difficult to understand?

It amazes me that you cannot see why arming people within our borders who are not from this country and pledge allegiance to a different flag is an amazingly stupid idea. You basically allow for an army to land on our shores and legally arm themselves to do whatever they want with no resistance at all. It's no secret that our border security as it stands is so porous it would be a breeze for a foreign agent to infiltrate the US via our southern border from a country that may wish to do us harm. Advocating arming people who are here illegally would make it stupid simple for any group with malice intent to field a cell of people and carry out an attack on us with little to no warning what so ever.
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#20
LMAO... yeah, okay, sure. Based on what I've posted and what you "know" of my background, you think I support amnesty. So, based on what you've posted and what I "know" about your background, you're bigoted right wing racist with an Asian fetish, who also happens to be a card carrying member of PETA, and a dirty hippie in need of a haircut. Did I cover all my bases?

It's funny how you keep mentioning Mexico, though. Must be your subconscience wanting to let us know you just don't like spicks. I've met more illegals from Europe and Asia than I have from Central and South America. Lost my job to some, too. Even met a few from Canada, eh? But you and most everyone else seem to be fixated on hispanic illegals. That's funny.

I don't support amnesty, I think illegals should be arrested, serve time in our prisons, then deported. But I support your version of Jim Crow even less. Human right-to-life applies to everyone, or no one. This includes people who are here illegally, people released from prison, liberal douchebags, midgets, and people from NJ.
Unbanned since September 2012.
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