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Why do we allow knife rights to be eroded when 2A doesn't define "arms"?
#1
I moved to DE recently and in addition to their "may issue" retarded-ness they also ban all pocket knives with a blade length longer than 3" which means my favorite assist blade at 3.5" is technically illegal now...as are most common multi-tools and swiss army knives. About the only thing that's legal is the "knife" on a pair of nail clippers. It's total bullshit, and more-so that you can buy an illegal knife at every sporting goods store and gun shop in the state. It strikes me as one of those things they can nail you on at a traffic stop to justify illegal searches and establish a bullshit form of probable cause.

Putting that aside though, PA has some fucked up knife laws too. If the 2A does not define "arms" why do we allow knives to be legislated with little or no resistance when knives should be protected under 2A and by lobbying groups by proxy?
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#2
Dont know the answer but you make a good point.
das, proud to be a member of pa2a.org since Sep 2012.
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#3
(09-19-2012, 02:58 AM)Emoticon Wrote: I moved to DE recently and in addition to their "may issue" retarded-ness they also ban all pocket knives with a blade length longer than 3" which means my favorite assist blade at 3.5" is technically illegal now...as are most common multi-tools and swiss army knives. About the only thing that's legal is the "knife" on a pair of nail clippers. It's total bullshit, and more-so that you can buy an illegal knife at every sporting goods store and gun shop in the state. It strikes me as one of those things they can nail you on at a traffic stop to justify illegal searches and establish a bullshit form of probable cause.
Stop posting and get a lawyer!!!Rolleyes

Putting that aside though, PA has some fucked up knife laws too. If the 2A does not define "arms" why do we allow knives to be legislated with little or no resistance when knives should be protected under 2A and by lobbying groups by proxy?


You make a very good point. If the 2A is understood as protecting the right for the citizens to have the equipment needed to remind the government that they govern at the consent of the governed, you are absolutely right.

If the 2A is understood as allowing for hunting... well, I guess you would be right then, too. Shrug

I wonder if the bigger issues revolve around guns so knives went on the back burner. Being on the back burner, they have been ignored in 2A arguments. Being ignored, I guess the "common knowledge" has become that 2A issues are solely firearms issues and that the 2A doesn't encompass other "arms" as well.
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#4
I'm not entirely sure I'd back your arguement. The reason being that stating "arms" isn't defined gives way to more gun legislation, such as the NFA laws. There was a reason it wasn't defined, but the liberals saw to it that "arms" doesn't cover full autos, short barrels, etc...The more definition you give it the more you lose when it comes to government control.
"What you're feeling now ain't the worst pain. The worst thing is not feeling the hurt anymore."
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#5
(09-19-2012, 04:09 AM)spartakis252 Wrote: I'm not entirely sure I'd back your arguement. The reason being that stating "arms" isn't defined gives way to more gun legislation, such as the NFA laws. There was a reason it wasn't defined, but the liberals saw to it that "arms" doesn't cover full autos, short barrels, etc...The more definition you give it the more you lose when it comes to government control.


I agree to a point. Defining firearms as "any gun that cannot shoot multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger" or as "anything that is not commonly used for hunting" is limiting. Defining arms as "anything that can be used in combat" is defining "arms" but in a way that is not only not limiting but that would overturn most - if not all - gun control legislation.
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#6
(09-19-2012, 04:40 AM)rmagill Wrote:
(09-19-2012, 04:09 AM)spartakis252 Wrote: I'm not entirely sure I'd back your arguement. The reason being that stating "arms" isn't defined gives way to more gun legislation, such as the NFA laws. There was a reason it wasn't defined, but the liberals saw to it that "arms" doesn't cover full autos, short barrels, etc...The more definition you give it the more you lose when it comes to government control.


I agree to a point. Defining firearms as "any gun that cannot shoot multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger" or as "anything that is not commonly used for hunting" is limiting. Defining arms as "anything that can be used in combat" is defining "arms" but in a way that is not only not limiting but that would overturn most - if not all - gun control legislation.


But that falls into "citizens aren't in combat" or even if it's worded "defensive arms" that calls for further defining. Example "combat arms" would then also eliminate "sporting arms" since Winchester 1894s aren't used in combat.
Any word or combination of words to specify what arms mean will somehow put a limit on it. "combat arms" "defensive arms" sporting arms" any other adjective you wanna put there will call for further defining of what that adjective covers.
"What you're feeling now ain't the worst pain. The worst thing is not feeling the hurt anymore."
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#7
Webster:

Quote:3arm noun, often attributive
Definition of ARM

1
a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm
b : a combat branch (as of an army)
c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2
plural
a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family
b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3
plural
a : active hostilities : warfare <a call to arms>
b : military service
— up in arms
: aroused and ready to undertake a fight or conflict <voters up in arms over the proposed law>

Oxford:

Quote:Definition of arms
plural noun
1weapons and ammunition; armaments:
they were subjugated by force of arms
[as modifier]:
arms exports
2distinctive emblems or devices, originally borne on shields in battle and now forming the heraldic insignia of families, corporations, or countries. See also coat of arms.


and

Quote:weap·on/ˈwepən/
Noun:
A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.
A means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict or contest: "resignation threats are a weapon in his armory".
The forum poster formerly known as Emoticon...
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#8
(09-19-2012, 05:23 AM)spartakis252 Wrote:
(09-19-2012, 04:40 AM)rmagill Wrote:
(09-19-2012, 04:09 AM)spartakis252 Wrote: I'm not entirely sure I'd back your arguement. The reason being that stating "arms" isn't defined gives way to more gun legislation, such as the NFA laws. There was a reason it wasn't defined, but the liberals saw to it that "arms" doesn't cover full autos, short barrels, etc...The more definition you give it the more you lose when it comes to government control.


I agree to a point. Defining firearms as "any gun that cannot shoot multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger" or as "anything that is not commonly used for hunting" is limiting. Defining arms as "anything that can be used in combat" is defining "arms" but in a way that is not only not limiting but that would overturn most - if not all - gun control legislation.


But that falls into "citizens aren't in combat" or even if it's worded "defensive arms" that calls for further defining. Example "combat arms" would then also eliminate "sporting arms" since Winchester 1894s aren't used in combat.
Any word or combination of words to specify what arms mean will somehow put a limit on it. "combat arms" "defensive arms" sporting arms" any other adjective you wanna put there will call for further defining of what that adjective covers.


Not really. Every male US citizen between certain ages is part of the Federal inactive militia. Also, if the 2A is understood to protect the rights of the people to remind the government that they govern at the consent of the governed, then there is no need to be in an active or inactive federal militia. Instead, I would argue that in this case the ability to effectively use and deploy any weapon would be protected by the 2A. I would include everything from a single-shot .22lr pistol to the most advanced weaponry available. If the 2A is understood this way, "sporting" firearms would be covered not because of their sporting or hunting purposes but because of their ability to be used in combat - which exists for every firearm. Even a .22 derringer. If understood this way, the 2A would also protect the possession of knives, swords, throwing stars, pitchforks, and pen guns.
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#9
Would a bayonet be covered under the 2A? Considering it attaches to a firearm and also they were widely available during the time of our Founding Fathers, Revolutionary War, and even as early The French and Indian War, it is very debatable. I don't want to mention swords, boot knifes, and other edged weapons, but specifically the bayonet.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
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#10
(09-19-2012, 01:33 PM)Emoticon Wrote: Webster:

Quote:3arm noun, often attributive
Definition of ARM

1
a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm
b : a combat branch (as of an army)
c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2
plural
a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family
b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3
plural
a : active hostilities : warfare <a call to arms>
b : military service
— up in arms
: aroused and ready to undertake a fight or conflict <voters up in arms over the proposed law>

Oxford:

Quote:Definition of arms
plural noun
1weapons and ammunition; armaments:
they were subjugated by force of arms
[as modifier]:
arms exports
2distinctive emblems or devices, originally borne on shields in battle and now forming the heraldic insignia of families, corporations, or countries. See also coat of arms.


and

Quote:weap·on/ˈwepən/
Noun:
A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.
A means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict or contest: "resignation threats are a weapon in his armory".


Gadsden_clr 1921 Websters New International Dictionary on my office shelf.

Arms n. pl. [ME. armes, F. arme, PL. armes, fr.L. arma, PL. arms CF. Alarm]

1)Instrument of offense or defense:loosely, objects of any kind that may be used as weapons.
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