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Winchester white box 9mm bad rounds (no flash hole)
#1
This is a repost of info I originally posted elsewhere. I should have gotten around to mentioning this here earlier, but we have a newborn in the house (arrived right around when I first heard of PA2A) and it's been all I could do to keep my eyes open some days.

The (new) summary: Winchester appears to have a somewhat widespread but not publicly acknowledge problem with handgun ammunition manufactured without a flash hole. When fired the force of the primer pushes the round against the throat of the chamber while also moving the primer cup toward the breach face. This can easily result in a jam.

Since posting this originally I've received many comments from others who have encountered this, and I've seen posts on other firearms boards about the same problem. Most people online seem to have found bad rounds of 9mm in Winchester 100 round value packs, but there's also a purported FBI internal document indicating that FBI duty loads in .40 S&W were affected by the same problem.

I and others affected who have sent in our bad or suspect rounds to Winchester/Olin have received either replacement ammo or vouchers for the purchase of Winchester ammo.

Quote:Executive summary: I had two dud rounds of WWB 9mm which got stuck in my gun. I plan to contact Winchester and complain about the ammo. Pictures are below.


Details:

I participated in the GSSF match in Topton, PA this past Saturday, shooting a Glock 19.

The ammunition was Winchester white box 100 round value packs from Walmart. My mags were loaded with a mix of ammo from an old box and a new one. I didn't pay attention to which mags had which ammo.

On the first string of fire the first two rounds went "bang", then the gun went "click" on the third round. Neither I nor the range officer could rack the slide to clear the dud round. After a delay I removed the slide and recoil spring, but I couldn't remove the barrel from the slide. With some tapping and banging it eventually came free. The reason I hadn't been able to rack the slide was that the round had a raised primer which had been pressing against the breech face.

In the mean time a Glock/GSSF employee had come up to the line; he examined the barrel and slide for any obvious damage or problems, and finding none said I could continue shooting.

Second try at the first string of fire, the gun went "bang" on the first round and "click" on the second. Same problem as before, couldn't rack the slide. Everyone agreed I needed to see the armorer but they didn't want me walking a hot gun back to where he was set up. This time when we managed to work the barrel out of the slide the dud round's primer cup fell out/off the back of the round. However no one could get the round out of the barrel so I walk the disassembled gun back to the armorer with the round in the chamber.

The armorer eventually freed it after a number of pulls with pliers on the extractor groove and pushes of a cleaning rod down the barrel from the muzzle.

The armorer examined the gun and said it was in good working order. (He performed a free upgrade of the slide lock spring and the recoil spring, both which he said had been improved over the course of the production run of the Gen3 G19, but said those were unrelated to the jams.) He told me to inspect all my rounds before shooting any more. I examined each one, then shot the 100 or so rounds of the match without further incident.

I had used two boxes of ammo, an old one of unkown date and one I just bought a few days ago. The rounds could have come from either, I don't have a good way to tell. One of the bad rounds appears to have some red lacquer on it, the other doesn't. One round appears to have a strange rolled-over crimp, the other doesn't. Here's what the rounds looked like:

[Image: _MG_4522.jpg]

[Image: _MG_4520.jpg]


Any thoughts?


EDITED TO ADD:
[Image: _MG_4534.jpg]

[Image: _MG_4550.jpg]

EDIT:
The lot numbers which the Winchester rep wanted from the boxes turned out to be embossed (not printed in ink) in the cardboard on the white side/outside of the flap sticking up into the box from below. In other words it was on a flap inside the box, but on the side of the flap facing away from the ammo. (See photo in post #26.) The rep mentioned several possible locations for the lot # and indicated that it could be in ink, so I gather that it is sometimes elsewhere and may look different. The lot #s were YK52 for the old box and FG11 for the new box. There were other markings on the bottom of the box in black ink which I had included in my email to Winchester. The rep didn't ask about those, but I'm not sure if it was because they weren't needed at all or just because they already had them in my email.
I am not a lawyer.
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#2
The other day I finally got around to using some of the ammo vouchers which Winchester had sent in exchange for my duds and unfired rounds from suspect boxes. I picked up some 30-30 at Walmart. Between the customer in front of me who didn't really know what he wanted and then three Walmart staffers who weren't sure how to process the vouchers it took me something like half an hour to get the ammo.

Two employees whom I often see in Sporting Goods as well as a CSM spent quite a while trying to figure out what to do with the vouchers. They paged for "a salaried member of management" several times, but none ever came. They said they couldn't process the vouchers as coupons because they have no bar code, so they weren't sure how to treat them from a payment standpoint.

Eventually they treated them if they were cash and told me they'd figure it out later. I had a two year old and an infant in tow, and although they were being pretty good a half-hour is a long time to stand around doing nothing. I think the Walmart guys eventually just give up waiting for the senior manager out of pity. Maybe they got tired of hearing me sing "The Wheels on the Bus". Big Grin
I am not a lawyer.
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#3
twency;34567 Wrote:but there's also a purported FBI internal document indicating that FBI duty loads in .40 S&W were affected by the same problem

Oh yay a reason to doubt my carry round

/facepalm

Thanks for the headsup. Off to find more info about the FBI ammo....if there is anything to find.
The law? The law is a human institution...
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#4
csmith;72512 Wrote:
twency;34567 Wrote:but there's also a purported FBI internal document indicating that FBI duty loads in .40 S&W were affected by the same problem

Oh yay a reason to doubt my carry round

/facepalm

Thanks for the headsup. Off to find more info about the FBI ammo....if there is anything to find.

This forum (among others) has text which appears to come from an internal FBI memo about recalled .40 S&W, although it's unverified: http://www.masscops.com/threads/winchest...ll.110207/
I am not a lawyer.
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#5
twency;72529 Wrote:This forum (among others) has text which appears to come from an internal FBI memo about recalled .40 S&W, although it's unverified: http://www.masscops.com/threads/winchest...ll.110207/

Thanks. That set me down the right path to dig up some corresponding info. I think I can relax. I carry Q4369 which is apparently a later revision of the affected Q4355.
The law? The law is a human institution...
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